Hang on, they want to make it LONGER?

[darmstadt]

Video of it on the mirror website

Lewis Gill killed Andrew Young with single punch outside Bournemouth branch of Tesco - Mirror Online

Notice that the bloke on the bike does stop - wonder if he goes back to see if the guy's OK?

If I recall the bloke who got punched was remonstrating with the bloke on the bike for riding on the pavement. The bloke who pnched was a mate of the bloke on the bike and after the altercation they both went off however the puncher went back and punched the poor chap just for the hell of it. Hopefully his bottom is going to be black and blue after being firmly punched now...

[d000hg]

I think this is the fundamental point we (and you and the law) disagree with. It IS reasonable to assume that violently assaulting someone could lead to serious injury or death. I was always told clearly that even a single punch can kill someone - and it's demonstrably true. People going down hit the ground HARD and it's not difficult to see how they may never get back up again.

So if you violently assault someone and they are seriously injured rather than killed, what should happen? What if they are not injured at all?

Saying it's likely they could die isn't resolving the debate... should you be punished based on what could be reasonably expected to happen, or what did happen?

[OwlHoot]

But I didn't ask what the law said, I asked what it should say, as a topic for discussion ....

It should say and do exactly that. Otherwise you could go around thumping anyone, from 5 year olds to 95 year olds, and if they died, which they very likely would, just shrug it off as an unfortunate accident resulting from a mere assault.

Someone who strays seriously outside the law opens themselves to all kinds of risks, and that's as it should be and society has no obligation to make allowances or excuse them.

[vwdan]

So if you violently assault someone and they are seriously injured rather than killed, what should happen? What if they are not injured at all?

Saying it's likely they could die isn't resolving the debate... should you be punished based on what could be reasonably expected to happen, or what did happen?

You're punished on BOTH - it's not either or.

If I push someone out of the way and nothing happens, then I'm not going to go prison.
If I push someone out of the way and they fall down the stairs, breaking their neck, then I'm going to be answering to a court.
If I accidentally trip someone up and they crack their skull open, then I'm probably not going to get arrested.

(Let's assume all of the above are on HD CCTV with lots of honest witnesses)

Did you read the links I posted or Google the cases? These principles aren't new to law - it's all about looking at the intent AND the end result.

With regards to your exact question - a violent assault is still a criminal offence, despite injury. This is why we have a variety of offences ranging from common assault, gbh, abh, attempted murder etc.

[vetran]

Indeed, but there is also a huge difference between intending to kill someone, and punching them. It is unreasonable to expect that punching someone would kill them.

Anyway my question is - if the victim had not been killed or seriously injured, what should have happened? For instance:Are you arguing that the same sentence would be appropriate if things turned out differently?



But I didn't ask what the law said, I asked what it should say, as a topic for discussion.

with a punch like that it is unlikely he would have got away without serious injury,
Wounding or Inflicting Grievous Bodily Harm - maximum sentence 5 years.

Factors indicating greater harm :
Injury (which includes disease transmission and/or psychological harm) which is serious in the context of the offence (must normally be present)
Victim is particularly vulnerable because of personal circumstances
Sustained or repeated assault on the same victim

entirely conjecture but if the victim had got up I suspect the perpetrator would have hit him again.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/...s_bodily_harm/

So he got the same as GBH.

Manslaughter - Provocation max sentence Life.

Low degree of provocation: Sentence Range: 10 years - life
A low degree of provocation occurring over a short period Starting Point - 12 years custody

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/...r_provocation/

so no a different sentence is required if he survived. Say 5 years.

you have to have scary consequences for dangerous activities. This wasn't a bar fight, or some one stabbing an abuser, it was broad daylight, they were already in the wrong and there was no indication the victim was any threat. Not sure how you can say this is anything other than one of the worst cases you are likely to see.

[northernladuk]

Death of the victim aside I still think 4 years (remember he will be out in 2 and less with good behaviour) isn't really enough for what he did. Taking a suckerpunch at someone when you are not involved with the ferocity he did should have serious ramifications regardless of the outcome of the punch. The sentence is supposed to be a deterrent, punishment and in theory rehabilitation of the offender. If people think they can punch others that hard I would say the offender is a problem and needs a tough sentence. You just can't go round thinking you can do that. IMO 4 years wouldn't have been enough even if the guy hadn't died.

In the US you can be tried for assault with a deadly weapon for punching and stamping on people. A gun can injure as well as kill and conversely a punch/stamp can kill as well as injure. Looking at the ferocity of that punch it's likely he would have been tried under that which would have got him more than 4 years.

[mudskipper]

Edit: Off-topic post removed.

[SpontaneousOrder]

The guy took a full on swing at a unexpecting guy who wasn't even looking at him. Perhaps you've never been decked in a fight, but that scenario is just a whisker shy of attempted murder in my judgement.

Longer.

[vwdan]

The guy took a full on swing at a unexpecting guy who wasn't even looking at him. Perhaps you've never been decked in a fight, but that scenario is just a whisker shy of attempted murder in my judgement.

Longer.

I think the Hollywood Effect sometimes has a lot to answer for here. Getting punched properly hurts (a lot), and if you've ever seen someone crack their head off the pavement (For any reason) you really get a feel for the forces involved.

There was a similar, and equally tragic, case near me where a man punched his best friend for having an affair with this wife (Or something along those lines).

[mudskipper]

Jailing Gill, from Sutton, Surrey, judge Keith Cutler said that Young did not represent a threat to him, adding: "You are a powerfully built young man.

"You must have known that it was going to cause a significant injury and, very sadly, it did."

That sums it up.