Dominoes - Pay a little more

[Mich the Tester]

Yet again making assumptions that people are victims. I perfectly see why you are concerned and sympathetic and your nice middle class values make it that you are horrified that young people should face hardship.
It can be argued that your attitude (I have the same feelings) is also part of the problem that we think that by making it easy for young people to find a "good" job we are helping them. So often the opposite is true
If on the other hand you roll the clack back to your parents era you will find that people who found it hard to make a living and earn the right to a good career had better values than our generation.
What we actually need is a strong spirit of entrepreneurism that encourages people to take responsibility for themselves. We also need a strong sense of community and social interraction (the big society) where earning good money is a luxury not a means to buying essentials (health education).
What we do not need is to be taxed to oblivion giving money to governments to squander at the expense of free market capitalism that it has stifled in the first place.

Much of that is right, but I wonder whether employers are prepared to consider an alternative to selecting those who have done unpaid internships; how about those who, like me and Lady Tester, went out to work in a low end job because they had to do that to earn a living and simply couldn't afford to do an internship (due to troubles in the family business at the time I had to leave college early, go to work, finish studying on the OU and her parents couldn't afford to support her through an internship either). She went into nursing because while she had the brains to be a doctor, nursing provided paid training, not out of any great desire to be a nurse; the passion she has for her work came later, long after she'd trained. Now I am not seeking sympathy at all because we have nothing to complain about, and this is not simply 'middle class concerns', it's actually a realisation that right now, the internship system has an effect of maintaining a status quo where the professions are a middle class bastion that is becoming more an more difficult for anyone without relatively wealty parents to break into. I think that can have lots of nasty consequences . I'm damned glad that back then low end jobs actually paid enough for both of us to get higher qualifications at the same time. We worked bloody hard to move on and up, and I think it would be a hell of a shame if people can't take that route to the professions. I am not objecting to people going on internships, but I'm concerned that it's acting as a barrier to those who simply cannot afford to go on internships. How should that be dealt with?

[vetran]

So who's problem is it? If an intern requires money to support himself then he can go and pick fruit or clean floors. If Tesco are giving internships on the basis they are getting free labour then that is the deal take it or leave it. If Tesco are forced to pay then they may decide they don't want to employ the people and put a stop to it. Who wins then? The lefties because it pleases them that they have put a stop to exploitation whereas the would be interns have no avenue to get into retail and are left either on the dole or picking fruit.

So Tesco hire 1000 people on internship for free and sack or not employ 1000 workers. The profits are offshored. What benefit is that to UK PLC?

There are a lot of things that need fixing to avoid the race to the bottom most large firms are running.

1. Remove subsidies for labour for established businesses - Companies will find a way to compete. Short term grants should be allowed to establish and build business. WFTC is an abomination.

2. Reduce or recognise that cheap imported labour will pull wages down. Decide how you give priority to citizens. Where it means little or no wage related tax is paid in the UK make that difficult to achieve.

3. Encourage long term unemployed back to work.

[DodgyAgent]

Much of that is right, but I wonder whether employers are prepared to consider an alternative to selecting those who have done unpaid internships; how about those who, like me and Lady Tester, went out to work in a low end job because they had to do that to earn a living and simply couldn't afford to do an internship (due to troubles in the family business at the time I had to leave college early, go to work, finish studying on the OU and her parents couldn't afford to support her through an internship either). She went into nursing because while she had the brains to be a doctor, nursing provided paid training, not out of any great desire to be a nurse; the passion she has for her work came later, long after she'd trained. Now I am not seeking sympathy at all because we have nothing to complain about, and this is not simply 'middle class concerns', it's actually a realisation that right now, the internship system has an effect of maintaining a status quo where the professions are a middle class bastion that is becoming more an more difficult for anyone without relatively wealty parents to break into. I think that can have lots of nasty consequences . I'm damned glad that back then low end jobs actually paid enough for both of us to get higher qualifications at the same time. We worked bloody hard to move on and up, and I think it would be a hell of a shame if people can't take that route to the professions. I am not objecting to people going on internships, but I'm concerned that it's acting as a barrier to those who simply cannot afford to go on internships. How should that be dealt with?

[DodgyAgent]

So Tesco hire 1000 people on internship for free and sack or not employ 1000 workers. The profits are offshored. What benefit is that to UK PLC?

There are a lot of things that need fixing to avoid the race to the bottom most large firms are running.

1. Remove subsidies for labour for established businesses - Companies will find a way to compete. Short term grants should be allowed to establish and build business. WFTC is an abomination.

2. Reduce or recognise that cheap imported labour will pull wages down. Decide how you give priority to citizens. Where it means little or no wage related tax is paid in the UK make that difficult to achieve.

3. Encourage long term unemployed back to work.

A different argument and I agree with what you say

[d000hg]

Tell me what you mean by 'having to', and I'll tell you if it's 'violent force'.

Yawn.

[Mich the Tester]

Economics, on the other hand, is fairly straight forward for anyone who cares to study the basics and it can be proven, objectively, that almost every single government policy to help the poor, or the economy, etc has the opposite effect.

Well there's universal healthcare and education, public housing built after the second world war to house those whose homes had been bombed and at the same time improve people's living standards, rationing that ensured everybody got sufficient nutrition, school dinners, public works that provided clean water even to slums in the 19th century, adding up to the fact that someone born to a poor family now can reasonably expect to live about twice as long as someone born to a poor family 200 years ago but otherwise, nothing governments have ever done to help the poor has ever worked, no.

[Old Greg]

Tell me what you mean by 'having to', and I'll tell you if it's 'violent force'.

For example, if I 'have to' give my wallet to a mugger or he'll kidnap me and lock me in a cage, then I don't see how anyone couldn't regard that as violent force.

You have to pay money you owe or you will be taken to court and your assets seized to pay the debt.

[Mich the Tester]

You have to pay money you owe or you will be taken to court and your assets seized to pay the debt...

...after you've had the opportunity to plead your case and explain why you believe you don't need to pay, and had professional legal advice provided to do so, and may even have won the case and had your debts removed from your name.

It's all very violent indeed isn't it?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

My view is that he should pay what the market says he should pay and not be allowed to go outside the EU. As for your comments about interns,......

Thanks - I don't think I said anything about interns. I agree with you (and the government minister) that he should just offer better pay.

[MicrosoftBob]

Well there's universal healthcare and education, public housing built after the second world war to house those whose homes had been bombed and at the same time improve people's living standards, rationing that ensured everybody got sufficient nutrition, school dinners, public works that provided clean water even to slums in the 19th century, adding up to the fact that someone born to a poor family now can reasonably expect to live about twice as long as someone born to a poor family 200 years ago but otherwise, nothing governments have ever done to help the poor has ever worked, no.

But what have the Romans ever done for us ?