So another Tory Government

[DodgyAgent]

I agree on the size issue, but where have I said we should give "power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats"?

As for supranational bodies that make laws, I think you'll have to accept that they will always need to exist

[Mich the Tester]

We want competition. We want competition in taxes as much as we want competition in supply and demand. We want countries to maintain the integrity of their laws and customs, languages and to be different from each other. What we do not want is the sort of homologation of the sort that the EU is trying to drive us towards.

I agree with much of that, and I think this thread proves that the EU question is not a simple, binary 'in or out'; there are several different ways to approach it, and many of them are probably better than the extreme options of leaving altogether or diving into more integration.

[darmstadt]

What people do not realise is that the bigger corporations and countries grow the bigger the monopolies and the further they become from the control and accountability of the people they serve. If you think that giving away power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats is the way forward then you have forgotten or ignored what history has taught us.

As can be seen by the British government, do you really think that those people you voted for actually make policy? Policy is made by Whitehall mandarins who pass it onto the democratically elected representatives of the people who then passes it on as their idea and then votes for it. As for monopolies, don't you think that privatisation and PFI and outsourcing to what seems like just a few companies who then conspire to fix prices (see rail and energy) is not a form of monopoly? In fact what the British government is doing is playing monopoly with the resources of the UK, selling the UK to the highest bidder and then subsidising them because in fact they lied in their bids...If you really think that your elected representatives are acting in your best interests, your countries best interests and not for corporations then you're living in a dream world.

[Mich the Tester]

As for supranational bodies that make laws, I think you'll have to accept that they will always need to exist

So would you also vote to leave NATO and the UN?

[doodab]

NO!

I want to see competition in Europe, not this harmonisation that will always lead to taxes going in only one direction; UP. Countries should be trying to attract talent and business by being more, not less competitive; that's the whole idea of a 'market'.

Firstly, taxation doesn't work as a market, because people can't choose where they are taxed, it comes as part of a package.

Secondly, lower taxes don't necessarily make a country more competitive, for example if they result in less good infrastructure and services.

Thirdly, harmonization needn't mean harmonizing rates (in Germany or the US for example, different states have different tax rates for some taxes), putting taxes up or introducing federal taxes. What it should mean is that an EU citizen only has to register for taxes once, declare income once, pay social insurance in their primary country of residence and so on without the current soup of complex and seemingly contradictory regulations.

[DodgyAgent]

As can be seen by the British government, do you really think that those people you voted for actually make policy? Policy is made by Whitehall mandarins who pass it onto the democratically elected representatives of the people who then passes it on as their idea and then votes for it. As for monopolies, don't you think that privatisation and PFI and outsourcing to what seems like just a few companies who then conspire to fix prices (see rail and energy) is not a form of monopoly? In fact what the British government is doing is playing monopoly with the resources of the UK, selling the UK to the highest bidder and then subsidising them because in fact they lied in their bids...If you really think that your elected representatives are acting in your best interests, your countries best interests and not for corporations then you're living in a dream world.

I totally agree with most of what you are saying. What you seem to miss is that I do not necessarily approve of what our governments do with the power they have. Just because our governments make bad policies and bad decisions does not mean we surrender the decision making process to someone else.

[doodab]

There is an obsession with size and uniformity. Everything has to grow. Already we have this:

10 Corporations Control Almost Everything You Buy

What people do not realise is that the bigger corporations and countries grow the bigger the monopolies and the further they become from the control and accountability of the people they serve. If you think that giving away power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats is the way forward then you have forgotten or ignored what history has taught us.

Is DA complaining about outcomes created by free markets?

I think I need to go and lie down.

[DodgyAgent]

Firstly, taxation doesn't work as a market, because people can't choose where they are taxed, it comes as part of a package.

Secondly, lower taxes don't necessarily make a country more competitive, for example if they result in less good infrastructure and services.

Thirdly, harmonization needn't mean harmonizing rates (in Germany or the US for example, different states have different tax rates for some taxes), putting taxes up or introducing federal taxes. What it should mean is that an EU citizen only has to register for taxes once, declare income once, pay social insurance in their primary country of residence and so on without the current soup of complex and seemingly contradictory regulations.

If you have competitive tax systems this puts the onus of responsibility onto the people who raise tax and most importantly what they do with it. If tax is raised and is spent well on infrastructure, health and everything else then it will make that country a more desirable place to live, have well educated workers, and be a place in which to invest and build a business etc. If tax is harmonised then governments can do what they like with it (and given the chance they will ) because every country will be a bureaucratic high tax, low level public service autocracy.

[DodgyAgent]

Is DA complaining about outcomes created by free markets?

I think I need to go and lie down.

Free markets create their own monopolies that destroy "free markets" ... have a long lie down

[DodgyAgent]

So would you also vote to leave NATO and the UN?

No