So another Tory Government

[doodab]

Can't speak for him but personally I'm happy with representative democracy. That means you vote for people that you think will take decisions that are in the best interests of all in the long run, and if you feel they aren't doing that, you vote for someone else next time.

I would be happier if one of the options allowed me to vote for people that I thought would take decisions that are in the best interests of all in the long run.

The trouble is that for most people it's about voting for people that best represent their own interests. We end up with a partially representative democracy because policies are made by one side or the other, they rarely provide a proportional reflection of the people's will.

[DodgyAgent]

I would be happier if one of the options allowed me to vote for people that I thought would take decisions that are in the best interests of all in the long run.

The trouble is that for most people it's about voting for people that best represent their own interests. We end up with a partially representative democracy because policies are made by one side or the other, they rarely provide a proportional reflection of the people's will.

How sanctimonious of you

[Mich the Tester]

Unless of course you are part of a system that passes laws irrespective of which party controls your country.

I guess you are referring to the EU, and if so, you aren't part of such a system; the EU parliament is elected; it is not a dictatorship. That doesn't mean I like the EU parliament and what they do; I don't and I don't believe it's necessary; I think we need a ' European Economic Community' (I think we've heard that term before) that enables free trade among members. As for supranational bodies that make laws, I think you'll have to accept that they will always need to exist. NATO enforces its agreements among members and is no more democratic than the EU. So does the UN. Supranational treaties are not something wierd, but something that's necessary.

Having said that I think the EU situation is becoming very fluid; Frau Merkel, as wel as the Danes, the Dutch, the Scandinavians and the Poles (maybe more) will probably be prepared to give significant concessions to keep Britain in; they want Britain in because many people on the centre right in northern Europe are thinking the same things as Dave seems to be thinking; yes to free trade, yes to free movement of working people, no to further interference or tax harmonisation and no to a free for all for people who don't work or contribute. Others in northern Europe see Britain as a potential ally for getting these things done. Northern European businesses need and rather like the free labour market and the ability to attract good staff from the rest of Europe, and like the fact that those people have no troubles bringing their families with them; the more sensible governments understand that at the moment the EU provides the mechanism for that. Joe Public doesn't see the changing ideas in Europe and doesn't really have much sight of what German, Dutch or Polish politicians are saying and has no sight at all of what's being said among political movements in the rest of Europe.

[Mich the Tester]

I would be happier if one of the options allowed me to vote for people that I thought would take decisions that are in the best interests of all in the long run.

The trouble is that for most people it's about voting for people that best represent their own interests. We end up with a partially representative democracy because policies are made by one side or the other, they rarely provide a proportional reflection of the people's will.

I think there will always be a difference between the ideal and the reality, but that doesn't invalidate the ideal of representative democracy.

[DodgyAgent]

I guess you are referring to the EU, and if so, you aren't part of such a system; the EU parliament is elected; it is not a dictatorship. That doesn't mean I like the EU parliament and what they do; I don't and I don't believe it's necessary; I think we need a ' European Economic Community' (I think we've heard that term before) that enables free trade among members. As for supranational bodies that make laws, I think you'll have to accept that they will always need to exist. NATO enforces its agreements among members and is no more democratic than the EU. So does the UN. Supranational treaties are not something wierd, but something that's necessary.

Having said that I think the EU situation is becoming very fluid; Frau Merkel, as wel as the Danes, the Dutch, the Scandinavians and the Poles (maybe more) will probably be prepared to give significant concessions to keep Britain in; they want Britain in because many people on the centre right in northern Europe are thinking the same things as Dave seems to be thinking; yes to free trade, yes to free movement of working people, no to further interference or tax harmonisation and no to a free for all for people who don't work or contribute. Others in northern Europe see Britain as a potential ally for getting these things done. Northern European businesses need and rather like the free labour market and the ability to attract good staff from the rest of Europe, and like the fact that those people have no troubles bringing their families with them; the more sensible governments understand that at the moment the EU provides the mechanism for that. Joe Public doesn't see the changing ideas in Europe and doesn't really have much sight of what German, Dutch or Polish politicians are saying and has no sight at all of what's being said among political movements in the rest of Europe.

There is an obsession with size and uniformity. Everything has to grow. Already we have this:

10 Corporations Control Almost Everything You Buy

What people do not realise is that the bigger corporations and countries grow the bigger the monopolies and the further they become from the control and accountability of the people they serve. If you think that giving away power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats is the way forward then you have forgotten or ignored what history has taught us.

[doodab]

yes to free trade, yes to free movement of working people, no to further interference or tax harmonisation

Northern European businesses need and rather like the free labour market and the ability to attract good staff from the rest of Europe, and like the fact that those people have no troubles bringing their families with them

I would say that a lack of commonality in tax systems and the provincial nature of those running them is currently the biggest barrier to free movement of working people, particularly for freelancers such as ourselves. The lack of clear information means it's a minefield and quite difficult for an individual to ensure compliance when moving from one country to another or working across borders, and dealing with multiple tax authorities is a total PITA. I'm still awaiting a refund from working in Germany, and I left 2 1/2 years ago. I have subsequently turned down work in other EU countries because I just don't want the hassle of dealing with their local tax systems.

So I would say that on a practical level EU wide simplification or harmonization of personal tax makes a lot of sense. Of course it will cease to make sense once the bureaucrats get their hands on it.

[DodgyAgent]

I think there will always be a difference between the ideal and the reality, but that doesn't invalidate the ideal of representative democracy.

There is no ideal, there is only reality.

[Mich the Tester]

So I would say that on a practical level EU wide simplification or harmonization of personal tax makes a lot of sense. Of course it will cease to make sense once the bureaucrats get their hands on it.

NO!

I want to see competition in Europe, not this harmonisation that will always lead to taxes going in only one direction; UP. Countries should be trying to attract talent and business by being more, not less competitive; that's the whole idea of a 'market'.

[Mich the Tester]

What people do not realise is that the bigger corporations and countries grow the bigger the monopolies and the further they become from the control and accountability of the people they serve. If you think that giving away power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats is the way forward then you have forgotten or ignored what history has taught us.

I agree on the size issue, but where have I said we should give "power to faceless unaccountable bureaucrats"?

[DodgyAgent]

I would say that a lack of commonality in tax systems and the provincial nature of those running them is currently the biggest barrier to free movement of working people, particularly for freelancers such as ourselves. The lack of clear information means it's a minefield and quite difficult for an individual to ensure compliance when moving from one country to another or working across borders, and dealing with multiple tax authorities is a total PITA. I'm still awaiting a refund from working in Germany, and I left 2 1/2 years ago. I have subsequently turned down work in other EU countries because I just don't want the hassle of dealing with their local tax systems.

So I would say that on a practical level EU wide simplification or harmonization of personal tax makes a lot of sense. Of course it will cease to make sense once the bureaucrats get their hands on it.

We do not want commonality just to make it easier for IT contractors to remain in the higher echelons of earners (from the man who likes to think he votes in the interests of others than himself ) . We want competition. We want competition in taxes as much as we want competition in supply and demand. We want countries to maintain the integrity of their laws and customs, languages and to be different from each other. What we do not want is the sort of homologation of the sort that the EU is trying to drive us towards.

If you wish to live in an Orwellian world like Oceana then vote to remain in the EU.