Crimewatch - Madeleine McCann

[MyUserName]

Checkmate, I think.

Nice try but you knew the answer for answer rule before posting that question.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I would say they are equally responsible but due to bad luck Person B has committed a far more serious crime (there but for the grace of God etc.).

However, it would be a more similar analogy if it were as below:

Person A is not driving carefully on main road in town because he's been adjusting his sunglasses in the rear view mirror for almost 30 seconds whilst not even glancing at the road and swerving violently at full speed. Nobody walks out in front of him and no harm done.

Person B is not driving carefully on main road in town because he's been adjusting his sunglasses in the rear view mirror for almost 30 seconds whilst not even glancing at the road and swerving violently at full speed when a child walks out in front of him and because he is not looking properly he does not break in time and kills the child.

Equally guilty of careless driving imho but Person A was lucky that day.

Doesn't break what in time?

[DodgyAgent]

As we discussed earlier in the thread - there are always risks. With children and everything else no one is saying otherwise. However, I think it was irresponsible for them to leave children that age alone like that and go to dinner with friends, it is irrespective of the kidnapping*.

You actually agreed earlier with my electric fire analogy.

*if there was one

You may consider their behaviour irresponsible but it is mean and cruel and judgemental to attribute that behaviour to them having their child abducted. It was not. They took a risk that you may not have taken, but we all take risks with our kids and as I have said before there but for the grace of god go we. The trouble is that you are coming at this from a subjective judgemental angle that relates to your own ideal of how kids should be looked after which is both selfish and irrelevant.

[Old Greg]

Nice try but you knew the answer for answer rule before posting that question.

Which leaves you with a position where people are responsible for their actions but not the consequences of their actions.

[MyUserName]

You may consider their behaviour irresponsible but it is mean and cruel and judgemental to attribute that behaviour to them having their child abducted. It was not. They took a risk that you may not have taken, but we all take risks with our kids and as I have said before there but for the grace of god go we. The trouble is that you are coming at this from a subjective judgemental angle that relates to your own ideal of how kids should be looked after which is both selfish and irrelevant.

But you already agreed with me on the electric fire analogy so we are already on the same page.

I have never said that I do not take risks with children, it is impossible not to, so we can cut your post to this:

You may consider their behaviour irresponsible but it is mean and cruel and judgemental to attribute that behaviour to them having their child abducted. It was not. They took a risk that you may not have taken ... The trouble is that you are coming at this from a subjective judgemental angle that relates to your own ideal of how kids should be looked after which is both selfish and irrelevant.

I stated previously that I thought it was irresponsible independent of the kidnapping due to the children's ages etc. so we have:

They took a risk that you may not have taken ... The trouble is that you are coming at this from a subjective judgemental angle that relates to your own ideal of how kids should be looked after which is both selfish and irrelevant.

I have no idea why you think I am being selfish and it is clearly relevant as we discussing my opinions so we have:

They took a risk that you may not have taken ... The trouble is that you are coming at this from a subjective judgemental angle that relates to your own ideal of how kids should be looked after

Yes, they took a risk I would not have taken and hence I think they were being irresponsible, it does relate to my ideal of how kids should be looked after.

[DodgyAgent]

If I choose to go to the pub and knowingly leave my electric fire on in the house and it causes a fire because I was not there to look after it, would you consider me to be in any way responsible for the damage caused to my neighbours house?

Let me ask you a question.

What would be the difference if you had switched everything off but left the fire plugged in and as a result of faulty wiring a fire had begun which resulted in the killing of your children?

[MyUserName]

Which leaves you with a position where people are responsible for their actions but not the consequences of their actions.

If only you would answer my very simple question then I could clarify things. Now, it just looks like you realise that cannot answer it without invalidating your position.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Which leaves you with a position where people are responsible for their actions but not the consequences of their actions.

I believe there's a test that applies in some bits of the law - something to do with what is reasonably foreseeable. Even considering the popular hysteria, most people wouldn't assume that one or more kids left in those circumstances would be bound to disappear without trace. Statistically such an outcome is beyond remote.

[Old Greg]

If only you would answer my very simple question then I could clarify things. Now, it just looks like you realise that cannot answer it without invalidating your position.

I don't have a position.

[MyUserName]

Let me ask you a question.

What would be the difference if you had switched everything off but left the fire plugged in and as a result of faulty wiring a fire had begun which resulted in the killing of your children?

I would be drastically negligent for leaving my children in the house by themselves with no one to look after them, or comfort them if they had a nightmare, woke up and fell out of bed etc. - my daughter is 4 and my son is 2. They do not get left in the house by themselves, especially just for me to go socialising.

Your turn - would you be responsible or not?


I must be missing something, I cannot understand why you seem to be so aggressive over this. It might be the limitations of the text or something. Can you honestly not understand why I feel the way I do? You must have an opinion yourself even if you choose not to voice it.