surprise

[vetran]

I'm contesting your position that overseas born residents should be entitled to no benefits.

and I said that where?

[northernladuk]

I'm not worried about current arrangements. I'm contesting your position that overseas born residents should be entitled to no benefits.

But it is the question (or position) that is flawed so completely unanswerable. There has to be some context to differentiate the real use of the system against the abuse, something like adding 'if they have come over for no other reason than the free hand outs', or 'if they were not not entitled to them in their own country' .. or something that you can actually argue.

[vetran]

But it is the question (or position) that is flawed so completely unanswerable. There has to be some context to differentiate the real use of the system against the abuse, something like adding 'if they have come over for no other reason than the free hand outs', or 'if they were not not entitled to them in their own country' .. or something that you can actually argue.

Thankyou!

[Mich the Tester]

But it is the question (or position) that is flawed so completely unanswerable. There has to be some context to differentiate the real use of the system against the abuse, something like adding 'if they have come over for no other reason than the free hand outs', or 'if they were not not entitled to them in their own country' .. or something that you can actually argue.

Yes, you are right. Abuse of the system has to be tackled, and that's difficult enough without complicating it with discussions and rules about where someone was born or which country has given them citizenship. If you want to tackle benefit fraud, tackle benefit fraud. If you want to tackle immigration, tackle immigration. Don't confuse the two issues.

[vetran]

You're missing the point entirely. OG is talking about an adult who has paid into the system all her working life, and in that case, yes, she would be eligible for benefits in Italy. As for children who've never paid in, that's an entirely different category and it would depend on whether they have Italian nationality. If they do, then yes, they have the same rights as any other Italian citizen.

My point exactly, OG brought in his 'UK born children' they however cute they may be they are irrelevant.

and the answer is 'it depends on the rules' not 'its not fair'.

I'm all for an insurance backed JSA scheme and a much less generous safety net with workfare.

[Mich the Tester]

My point exactly, OG brought in his 'UK born children' they however cute they may be they are irrelevant.

and the answer is 'it depends on the rules' not 'its not fair'.

I'm all for an insurance backed JSA scheme and a much less generous safety net with workfare.

So actually, your problem is with a social insurance system that is structured the wrong way and badly run, regardless of the rights of foreigners. Not the fault of foreigners, immigrants, the EU, muslims or anyone else on the standard list, but the fault of British governments and the British citizens that put them in power. Stop clouding the issue with nationality, because in the system as it should be run, it's irrelevant.

[Old Greg]

Sorry that's a bit Glib




FTFY

If 20% of our population were like

Johnny Chung Lee - Projects

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshmi_Mittal

etc

and had no recourse to benefits and could be deported if they broke our laws, I think most people would see them as a benefit.

and I said that where?

Your position is clear from the above and subsequent discussion.

[Old Greg]

My point exactly, OG brought in his 'UK born children' they however cute they may be they are irrelevant.

and the answer is 'it depends on the rules' not 'its not fair'.

I'm all for an insurance backed JSA scheme and a much less generous safety net with workfare.

The relevance ought to be obvious. Overseas born non-citizens have dependents who are born in the UK and British citizens. See?

[d000hg]

If many UK citizens pay tax all their lives and never see of it back as benefits why should we pay out to someone who isn't a UK citizen who has paid tax?

Because that's not the point of the system, you aren't accruing benefits by paying in.

[NotAllThere]

When I was in Switzerland someone told me 20% of their population was made up of foreigners, of which I was obviously one

25% in Basel. The largest immigrant group is Italian, followed by German/Austrian and the former Yugoslavia.

My wife has a British passport and wasn't born in the UK. Neither were her brother and sister. All three have degrees (Biochemistry, Chemical Engineering, Business and Law - so at least two proper degrees). However, 33% have emigrated.