surprise

[Old Hack]

I'd swap Sas for a Romanian street cleaner any day. They could probably provide better economic theories for a start.

I'd swap him for some paving slabs, much for the same reasons.

[Old Greg]

To answer Old Greg, (by the way it is not personal),

1. contributions are not directly linked to benefits that is a basic precept of the benefits system, if they were I suspect the vast majority of the posters here could give up work, buy a house in Wales and live the dream with ZG on pretty good benefits.

2. Marriage for citizenship is regularly abused. Absence of a lottery win on benefits makes that less likely.

3. where do we draw the line? Your foreign born wife, your Italian half brother, your mexican maid, your foreign mate down the pub? These lines need to be drawn somewhere.

4. I'm sort of assuming your wife uses the fire service, NHS etc? Is that not what her contributions contribute to?



For the hard of thinking (SAS) I will restate the question in big letters and shorter words.

If many UK citizens pay tax all their lives and never see of it back as benefits why should we pay out to someone who isn't a UK citizen who has paid tax?

What you are missing is the concept of the safety net. Things go wrong in people's lives. And then the safety net kicks in. Why should my wife not have the same entitlement as UK born residents, when she has contributed and has the right to live and work in this country for life? Let's say your rules are in place here and in her country of origin. She is destitute and presumably must return to her country of origin. Presumably that country would refuse to admit our destitute UK born children. So you take them into care?

And by the way, she is not foreign born.

[stek]

Yes ( in Germany), if you've paid in for some number of years. Dunno about Switzerland, but most countries differentiate between 'handouts', like income support, which aren't related to how much you pay in, and state insurance pay-outs like unemployment benefit, state pension, disability payments; the state insurance payouts are available to those who've paid in.

You can in CH too, my mate was on contract there just under two years, got RAV no problem and very generous it was too.

[vetran]

What you are missing is the concept of the safety net. Things go wrong in people's lives. And then the safety net kicks in. Why should my wife not have the same entitlement as UK born residents, when she has contributed and has the right to live and work in this country for life? Let's say your rules are in place here and in her country of origin. She is destitute and presumably must return to her country of origin. Presumably that country would refuse to admit our destitute UK born children. So you take them into care?

not forgetting it,it is the crux that the safety net is available for abuse.

The question is who do we issue it to? Do we ask for additional contributions from you to cover it? Do we as soon as you marry a UK citizen allow you to claim benefit etc?


If your children were born on holiday in Italy could they claim Italian benefits for the rest of their lives? No of course not, all countries have restrictions. Its where you draw the line.

Currently I suspect your wife would be eligible for a widows pension if you pass away Social security pensions: widow's pension

However as many benefits are being reassessed and its likely many of us will never see our state pension I would advise you to make alternate arrangements just in case.


Why are the benefits being reassessed? Too many people are claiming the benefits.

You may believe that's due to more elderly people, home grown chavs, people better off on benefits or cheap labour imported to get the wages down below livable levels. But it is a fact more goes out than we can support long term.

[Mich the Tester]

You can in CH too, my mate was on contract there just under two years, got RAV no problem and very generous it was too.

Yes, and that's because the system is officially an insurance scheme; you pay social premiums to be ensured agains the risks that working people run, like losing their job, becoming too ill to work, industrial accidents and so on. Switzerland IS NOT obliged to provide non-premium based benefits like income support, and neither is Britain. Effectively, an EU citizen can stay in an EU country or Switzerland as long as he can pay his way with either income from work or business, pension, private means, or the premium-based benefits from the schemes he has paid into. Unlike most people seem to think, neither Britain nor any other country is obliged to let people stay and pick up income support; if anything, the problem is in the tulipe admin of most governments who can't actually figure out who's taking money rightfully and who isn't. It's just a shame that the current fashion of politicians and citizens, all over Europe is to blame somebody else when things are going wrong. The common denominators on the 'somebody else' lists all over Europe are the EU, Johnny Foreigner, Muslims, Eastern Europeans and Lefties. It's just a weak escuses for governments and people who can't get their bloody act together.

[Mich the Tester]

If your children were born on holiday in Italy could they claim Italian benefits for the rest of their lives?

You're missing the point entirely. OG is talking about an adult who has paid into the system all her working life, and in that case, yes, she would be eligible for benefits in Italy. As for children who've never paid in, that's an entirely different category and it would depend on whether they have Italian nationality. If they do, then yes, they have the same rights as any other Italian citizen.

[Old Greg]

not forgetting it,it is the crux that the safety net is available for abuse.

The question is who do we issue it to? Do we ask for additional contributions from you to cover it? Do we as soon as you marry a UK citizen allow you to claim benefit etc?


If your children were born on holiday in Italy could they claim Italian benefits for the rest of their lives? No of course not, all countries have restrictions. Its where you draw the line.

Currently I suspect your wife would be eligible for a widows pension if you pass away Social security pensions: widow's pension

However as many benefits are being reassessed and its likely many of us will never see our state pension I would advise you to make alternate arrangements just in case.


Why are the benefits being reassessed? Too many people are claiming the benefits.

You may believe that's due to more elderly people, home grown chavs, people better off on benefits or cheap labour imported to get the wages down below livable levels. But it is a fact more goes out than we can support long term.

I'm not making arrangements based on your musings. Presumably you would want her denied a widow's pension, so destitute and forced to return to her country of origin leaving her children here.

[vetran]

You can in CH too, my mate was on contract there just under two years, got RAV no problem and very generous it was too.

I don't suppose those are both a 'for life' payment regardless of contribution value? You can't receive it for 40 years after 2 years working?

I suspect its a benefit defined by contribution that expires when the pot empties or a specified period expires?

That would be an unemployment insurance scheme, which personally I like as a basis but was removed in the UK.

what happens when your pot empties or the time expires? Do they give you the same as a Swiss Citizen? Germany may be different due to the EU.

[vetran]

I'm not making arrangements based on your musings. Presumably you would want her denied a widow's pension, so destitute and forced to return to her country of origin leaving her children here.

more fool you.

no I wouldn't want her destitute or denied a widows pension which is why I mentioned it so you can investigate it as it obviously worries you. Though no doubt she will be unable to get it when the benefits fund runs out.

Its not emotional its reality.

so I would make your own arrangements see the financial advisers! You are easy pickings for benefit cuts by the government, rich contractor with a foreign wife compared to young mother.

If I pop off the wife gets the house paid off and a stack of cash from various insurances / investments and she is British. My pension will allow me to live reasonably into my old age.

Benefit cuts are coming whoever is in Government. Too many claimants and falling tax take will cause that.

[Old Greg]

more fool you.

no I wouldn't want her destitute or denied a widows pension which is why I mentioned it so you can investigate it as it obviously worries you. Though no doubt she will be unable to get it when the benefits fund runs out.

Its not emotional its reality.

so I would make your own arrangements see the financial advisers! You are easy pickings for benefit cuts by the government, rich contractor with a foreign wife compared to young mother.

If I pop off the wife gets the house paid off and a stack of cash from various insurances / investments and she is British. My pension will allow me to live reasonably into my old age.

Benefit cuts are coming whoever is in Government. Too many claimants and falling tax take will cause that.

I'm not worried about current arrangements. I'm contesting your position that overseas born residents should be entitled to no benefits.