Shock! Horror! Daily Wail says foreign born commit 25% of the crimes in London

[Old Greg]

Yes in places like New Addington, parts of Liverpool etc but if you bother to check details of youth gang-related shooting and stabbings in London and some other major cities you will find they are disproportionately by ethnic minorities. Try looking at all the cases in London over the last few years. Here's a few general links:

BBC News - The rise and fall of Brixton's GAS gang
BBC News - Gang murdered boy during rush hour at Victoria station
BBC News - The gang war being waged on Britain's streets
Gang rape: Is it a race issue? - Crime - UK - The Independent

There are also the other sort of gangs, in the Mafia sense, that control the drug trade. Turkish and, in recent years, Russian figure significantly.
Turkish drug gang leader jailed for 22 years | UK news | The Guardian




Arguments on immigration should be based on facts.

Race (culture, whatever) is an issue should not be ignored.

But what are the factors that sit along race? Age, wealth, gender?

I reckon that if you look at gang violence (and I've had a few already this evening so you'll not see facts from me), you will find that criminals are disproportionately, ethnic minortity, young, poor, male.

I don't see too many Daily Mail articles ranting about men, but let's leave that for the moment.

The interesting overlap is between being poor and being ehtnic minority (or more specifically members of certain ethnic minority groups if you prefer).

Perhaps the causal relationship is not:

Being ethnic minority makes young men more likely to commit violent gang related offences,

BUT

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit violent gang related offences,

OR

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit crimes, which expresses itself more in a violent gang way in ethnic minorities,

OR

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit crimes, which is more likely to be interpreted as violent gang behaviour when committed by ethnic minorities.

And then if you accept the correlation between (certain) ethnice minorities and poverty, yo can go down the route of:

Racism makes certain ethnic minority people more likely to be poor,

OR

Racial or cultiral deficiencies make certain ethnic minority people poor.

It really has so many possiblilities, and the great thing is none of them require anyone to challenge their pre-conceptions, but instead you can pick out the one that bst fits with your existing political views. However, the important thing is to stick to your guns and try to prove that you're right.

[AtW]

Can't the police crack down with extreme prejudice on all criminals? Do the whole 100% lot.

[doodab]

I blame the parents. And tv. And video games.

[Old Greg]

[QUOTE=doodab;1744200]I blame Thatcher.QUOTE]

FTFY

[Old Greg]

Can't the police crack down with extreme prejudice on all criminals? Do the whole 100% lot.

They'd have to do themselves last.

[xoggoth]

It really has so many possiblilities, and the great thing is none of them require anyone to challenge their pre-conceptions

"Racism" is not a simple thing.

Real problems with a minority of a group can affect perceptions of the group as a whole and such perceptions then impact the decent ones who then find it harder to get jobs and makes the situation worse.

Unrealistic expectations don't help either. Too many brought in to do unskilled jobs have such high hopes for their children and they and their kids are resentful or assume racism when it doesn't happen, although children of white British cleaners are statistically not too likely to be top professionals either.

Practically speaking, the best solutions are surely to have stricter controls ensure and a higher bar, to ensure as far as possible that any migrants we let in do succeed and give a positive impression. More decent role models would make a big difference.

[vetran]

OK key points many of you are all ignoring.

The existing electorate DID NOT VOTE for immigration. It was done for Political purposes and the electorate were lied to. That I think is bad.

If those immigrants were not here they could not commit those crimes in the UK. That is just logic. Its not statistics or even vaguely open to discussion for anyone with a braincell.

I believe the absence of immigrants would result in a decrease in offending overall not just by percentage. This may be difficult to cope with but most who come here are not likely to be normal boring people that go to the Bowling club, they are going to be outliers, these are going to be the people with the guts to travel round the world. Or with a driving reason.

Try this list of crimes and reply with the ethnic group you instantly associate with it:

Illegal child begging
Forced labour - e.g. cockle picking
Sex trafficing
ring Grooming underage girls in care
industrial level cannabis farming
looting during rioting
Blowing themselves up on tube trains

any of those come up as Mr Jones of the Surrey Joneses? - Thought not

see if you can find the first 3 examples of each and tell us which ethnic group they come from.

Now if we list
shoplifting
tax evasion
fraud
embezzlement
Armed Robbery

then I suspect you would agree the majority would be white and possibly English.

The immigrants are likely to be self selecting, the ones willing to cross continents to seek asylum illegally (they passed through a safe country so are not entitled to asylum) are quite likely to have a relaxed attitude towards the law.

The immigrants that can afford passage to the UK are unlikely to be dirt poor farmers. They are more likely to be criminals, in debt to criminals or the rich of another country.

As has been seen from the eastern european mafia many are unpleasant and wanted in their country so they move here for a clean break.

We have to put up with our own home grown criminals and skivers why do we need any more?

Yes we do export UK nationals and even some criminals, but I would expect them to be deported back if they break the laws of their host country or fail to contribute. Just as Australia, Dubai etc have already done.

Yes our indigenous population commit crime but as your mummy might have told you - two wrongs don't make a right. It doesn't make any sense as an argument once you get past 7 years old.

Denying these facts because it has a link in the DM or you think its racist (without any evidence) is the action of someone who is unable to form a rational argument.

The idea that its acceptable to import people to do the work ' the unemployed don't want to do' is frankly insulting to many , I have a number of friends that have said they would like to work but they can't afford to lose the benefits, as I have known them working long hours for decades and they find a new job eventually that pays enough my faith seems well placed. There is research to support this. New Labour used immigration to keep wages down to keep inflation down, that was Gordon's secret.

Now none of those make me a racist, just a realist.

so please improve your arguments you look idiotic.

[AtW]

The existing electorate DID NOT VOTE for immigration. It was done for Political purposes and the electorate were lied to. That I think is bad.

That's politics.

HTH

[vetran]

Most white collar criminals seem to be white middle aged men; please explain why.

Its their crime of choice & opportunity - its the one they feel comfortable with and fits in with their lifestyle & temptation points. As other ethnic groups get more representation in those positions I expect it will become more common.

Plenty of Indian's commit fraud nowadays, I suspect Africans will follow suit soon.

[aussielong]

Race (culture, whatever) is an issue should not be ignored.

But what are the factors that sit along race? Age, wealth, gender?

I reckon that if you look at gang violence (and I've had a few already this evening so you'll not see facts from me), you will find that criminals are disproportionately, ethnic minortity, young, poor, male.

I don't see too many Daily Mail articles ranting about men, but let's leave that for the moment.

The interesting overlap is between being poor and being ehtnic minority (or more specifically members of certain ethnic minority groups if you prefer).

Perhaps the causal relationship is not:

Being ethnic minority makes young men more likely to commit violent gang related offences,

BUT

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit violent gang related offences,

OR

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit crimes, which expresses itself more in a violent gang way in ethnic minorities,

OR

Being ethnic minority makes you more likely to be poor that makes young men more likely to commit crimes, which is more likely to be interpreted as violent gang behaviour when committed by ethnic minorities.

And then if you accept the correlation between (certain) ethnice minorities and poverty, yo can go down the route of:

Racism makes certain ethnic minority people more likely to be poor,

OR

Racial or cultiral deficiencies make certain ethnic minority people poor.

It really has so many possiblilities, and the great thing is none of them require anyone to challenge their pre-conceptions, but instead you can pick out the one that bst fits with your existing political views. However, the important thing is to stick to your guns and try to prove that you're right.

What a load of liberal rubbish. They were subhuman before they got into gangs. There is your causality.

They are scum- whatever you do to help them, they will always be scum. It's Darwinian.

Certain ethnic groups love conflict. It's in their nature. Arabs for instance. They flare up. Some mediterraneans have inherited that from them.

Similarly, you cannot eradicate poverty. It's a natural consequence of the human economic food chain.

We should reintroduce national service.