Reasonable comment or Misogynistic madness?

[vetran]

Not surprised about the 'Yes, but' comments.

They sound as if they (and that MP) give guys permission to rape if they see women with short skirts and heels (and if they're drunk so much the better).

It might be a different matter then.

That is not what he said, or what I said.

He said - take care to keep yourself safe when out, dress sensibly in light of the danger and don't get so drunk you don't realise what's going on.

I said - I believe there are different motives and factors in different variants of the crime described as rape, by failing to recognise that and identify risks and behaviour that make opportunistic rape more likely then we are failing the victims.

the conviction rate IMHO is so low because no jury is going to convict these equally.
1. an over excited drunken boy in his girlfriends bedroom and she wakes up in the morning with a hangover and say's she was too drunk to consent .
2.someone who took a drunken girl home who after having apparent consensual sex wakes up and claims rape.
3. Someone who grabs a lonesome paralytic girl home and abuses her
4. with a man who stalked a woman for 3 months before grabbing her in her jogging outfit in the park.

They are all wrong, but they require different investigation & punishment.

The arrest rate of opportunist rapists is so poor because I suspect we don't take the risk of opportunistic rape seriously enough and understand the patterns that make it more likely, we assume its the same as Planned predatory rape. We don't encourage victims to report it in good time.


'Men don't care what women wear they are going to rape them anyway' is based on research done on predatory rapists. I doubt that is the case in all types.

Are we going to get anywhere reducing the number of offences by saying 'It's all the man's fault they are all closet rapists'?

That isn't yes - but. Its what I believe is reasoned argument, the posts from the females do seem to be "its all men's fault, we can do what we like, la,la,la"

It's this kind of state he is suggesting avoiding

Drunken girls go wild across the UK | The Sun |News


Its a bit like me wandering around drunk, in a dodgy end of town with the medallion, Rolex and Iphone on show. I don't do it, that would be stupid. YMMV.

Until it's your daughter/wife/mother.

No emotive argument then?

Precisely, if we carry on ignoring the facts it could well be. Lets put bad people in prison for a long time. Let's not give them easy victims.

[rob s]

But he's mixed both side of personal accountability and put the responsibility all on one party. Being sober enough to be personally responsible for your own safety is not unreasonable. Dressing in an arbitrarily prescribed manner so that other people won't want to rape you is.

Who decides what is 'sensible'? Attitudes change. I could argue that in victorian times, being fully clothed but a dress short enough to show a womans ankles was considered provocative. Does that still hold true today? Of course not.

I'd argue that a woman walking around topless was still not 'asking for it'.

[vetran]

But he's mixed both side of personal accountability and put the responsibility all on one party. Being sober enough to be personally responsible for your own safety is not unreasonable. Dressing in an arbitrarily prescribed manner so that other people won't want to rape you is.

No he didn't He actually said :

‘It’s not about the impact of your clothes on a potential predator – it’s about whether the clothes you’re wearing make it harder to get away from a predator.’

It was discussed in this thread that a few posters including me believe dressing excessively slutty might draw attention to yourself and make the risk higher. I have no proof of this other than the belief that if what you wear doesn't make you more sexually attractive then we can close the fashion industry.

[d000hg]

How about if we employ the principle of 'reductio ad absurdem' - does it become clearer then?

"Any woman that isn't wearing a chastity belt and accompanied by two armed male (eunuch) relatives is basically asking for it...."

or

"Any woman who walks around in broad daylight is asking for it"


Does it therefore become any less ridiculous to say that "any woman who wears fewer clothes than what someone else arbitrarily defines as 'normal' is therefore asking for it?"

RaA doesn't work in all cases. This is one of them.

[EternalOptimist]

I have just come back from the bog and me poor saus is red raw. nothing is more designed to get me going than threads like this
dungarees and polo necks, phwoarr. loose fitting baggies and three sizes too big polos, oooogghh

must go to touch myself again. back in a minute

[SueEllen]

That's right, cause all lad mags don't have any glamorous women in cause we don't care.

Not every man thinks the same way otherwise you would fully understand things varying from why men ask silly questions on this board (I know there are some women) and why some men decide rape is acceptable.

As I said this is not a coverall or excuse for any one particular area or reason and worded badly for shock factor..

BTW if it doesn't matter what a girl wears why do parents go ballistic when their daughters go out dressed in little more than a handkerchief and make up.... safety fears above all else... they don't say it as explicitly as the news article says, hence my comments that is a tad too direct and therefore open to debate but every parent acts on the same fears to some level.

Actually my parents didn't have a problem with me wearing skimpy outfits and neither do some of the parents I know who now have teenage daughters.

What my parents had an issue with and these parents have an issue with is being drunk.

In some of these parents cases (unlike my case) the girls are only allowed to drink if they are in a place with adults they know. One guy I know who is separated from his partner use to get fed up of going out and finding his daughter was out in the same place as she would then start to get drunk.

I know from being a teenager and discussing the nasty comments that these parents made, the parents who got upset with their girls wearing skimpy clothes and make up were the ones who didn't want to think of their daughters as being sexually active even though they were above the age of consent. It didn't matter if the guy was a long term boyfriend who was as sensible and boring as they came, their daughter wasn't screwing as long as she lived in their house regardless of her age.

[SueEllen]

It was discussed in this thread that a few posters including me believe dressing excessively slutty might draw attention to yourself and make the risk higher. I have no proof of this other than the belief that if what you wear doesn't make you more sexually attractive then we can close the fashion industry.

What is excessively slutty? What is the measure of it?

[rob s]

So all women should wear trainers / hiking boots so they can escape?

What about clothing which is aerodynamically optimised for a low drag coefficient?

Go-faster stripes?

[mudskipper]

And gay men should dress straight to avoid being targets of hate crime.

[TestMangler]

And gay men should dress straight to avoid being targets of hate crime.

That wouldn't work. Gay men generally have a much better dress sense