Europe

[DodgyAgent]

That's because you think leaving would be simple and straight forward. You're not interested in the likely cost, time-frame and legislative nightmare an EU exit would bring about. I'm not surprised about what you don't "see" in this case.

You of all people who has worked in IT systems should have worked out that cost of exit is not a good way of determining whether to make changes. You should also know that the vested interests against change will exaggerate the difficulties that change will create. And you of all people should understand that if change is needed and it is properly executed that all these so called problems and much of the cost never materialises.

Also I would have thought that you would be worldly enough and intelligent enough to work out that the EU is unlikely to allow the UK to leave and then throw up barriers that have the effect of damaging the interests of the EU

[BlasterBates]

Greece is already locked into chaos for the foreseeable future and relies on the Germans to hold back revolutionary forces. Or is Greece too far away and too small to matter?

Greece had an election and about over 90% of the electorate voted for pro-European parties declaring their support for the Euro

Leaving the Euro would have brought about economic chaos comparable to that seen in Argentina. There aren´t masses of people sleeping on the streets like they were there, and the Athens stock index has doubled in value since then.

That is why the Greeks support Europe and the Euro because it is a better alternative.

Yes there is high unemployment but they are receiving benefits, not an apology from an Argentinian finance minister.

[DodgyAgent]

Then surely it would be in everyone's interest if we kicked Greece out. Except that leaves us with the same issue - there's no precedent and no provision for kicking anyone out. Same as there's no precedent or provision for leaving. So it can't be as simple and straight forward as you think it is.

I don't buy into your paranoia, so I won't entertain it. I find it quite amusing though.

A German-run superstate? Mwahahaha! Maybe I won't give up my German citizenship just yet.

It already is a German run superstate.

The Germans implement the Euro aided and abetted by the French
The European countries lose their competitive edge by being part of the Euro - wage costs merge with those of Germany's
german BMWs are no more expensive than Italian Fiats and Greek chariots
The German banks lend money to the Greek, Italian and Spanish car buyers.
Greecs goes bust owing the German banks millions.
Germany dictates terms to Greece about how these debts are paid and Greece is left in debt for years to come relying on German handouts and further loans
Meanwhile because the Euro is relatively weak compared to what the Deutschmark would have been, Germany continues to manufacture products at highly competitive rates thus building up huge currency reserves.

[sasguru]

I'm not sure I'd call that an 'argument' - more like a pretty absurd case of paranoia.

.

For a German to say that is bizarre. Germans of all people should be paranoid about keeping your democratic rights having had experience in living memory of hwo easily they can be dismantled.
Spain and Italy have unelected technocrats as leaders, approved in the ultimate say by Germany.

I don't normally agree with Dodgy but on this he is right.

[DodgyAgent]

Greece had an election and about over 90% of the electorate voted for pro-European parties declaring their support for the Euro

Leaving the Euro would have brought about economic chaos comparable to that seen in Argentina. There aren´t masses of people sleeping on the streets like they were there, and the Athens stock index has doubled in value since then.

That is why the Greeks support Europe and the Euro because it is a better alternative.

Yes there is high unemployment but they are receiving benefits, not an apology from an Argentinian finance minister.

So as long as Greece does what the Germans tell them to do then they are fine. One of the problems with the UK economy is that there are two many zombie companies holding back competition in markets that are not growing. The same applies to people who go bankrupt. It is a hard choice at the time but often these hard choices need to be made.

[sasguru]

Greece had an election and about over 90% of the electorate voted for pro-European parties declaring their support for the Euro

Leaving the Euro would have brought about economic chaos comparable to that seen in Argentina. There aren´t masses of people sleeping on the streets like they were there, and the Athens stock index has doubled in value since then.

That is why the Greeks support Europe and the Euro because it is a better alternative.

Yes there is high unemployment but they are receiving benefits, not an apology from an Argentinian finance minister.

Are you completely innumerate or just a farking liar? Where did you get 90%?
Either way you're not qualified to debate the issue. What a moron.

BBC News - Greece poll: Pro-bailout party's narrow win hailed

And there are people sleeping in the streets and short of food in Greece. Its GDP has fallen by 25% in the last 5 years.

[BlasterBates]

Are you completely innumerate or just a farking liar? Where did you get 90%?
Either way you're not qualified to debate the issue. What a moron.

BBC News - Greece poll: Pro-bailout party's narrow win hailed

And there are people sleeping in the streets and short of food in Greece. Its GDP has fallen by 25% in the last 5 years.

The main opposition party was anti-bail out, but was pro European and pro Euro, they just wanted to renegotiate the terms of the bail out. Their viewpoint was that they were committed to the Euro. They may have rejected the bail out but they were preparing to confront the Euro members by keeping the Euro. That was the threat "you can´t stop us keeping the Euro". Of course it was untenable but they were pro-Euro.

I did see an overweight Greek on CNN with her overweight chilren complaining she couldn´t afford enough food. Perhaps one should look a little more closely about what that actually means. I find it hard to believe they couldn´t afford a sack of potatoes.

[DodgyAgent]

The main opposition party was anti-bail out, but was pro European and pro Euro, they just wanted to renegotiate the terms of the bail out. Their viewpoint was that they were committed to the Euro. They may have rejected the bail out but they were preparing to confront the Euro members by keeping the Euro. That was the threat "you can´t stop us keeping the Euro". Of course it was untenable but they were pro-Euro.

How can they be anti bail out and pro Euro? Or are they simply anti brain? in which case they are better off being ruled by the Germans

[Doggy Styles]

The conservatives are now in exactly the same position Michael Foot was in the 1980´s. Completely unelectable.

Exactly the same?

Did I miss the Foot premiership?

Must have been that donkey jacket.

[darmstadt]

-It is perfectly serious. What people like you seem to ignore from history is how the gathering of power without democratic accountability is like a snowball.

But the EU does have democratic accountability, what are MEPs? Just because the average voter in the UK can't be bothered to vote in the European elections doesn't mean that you don't have representation, pretty similar to local and national UK elections. I will admit that the EU needs proper accountability but then again so does every government body, so nothing new there, is there?

- Dictatorships grow in times of economic hardship. People are desperate and will support anyone who shows leadership even if it means sacrificing freedoms. That is exactly what is happening now.

Where? The UK perhaps? With the ever increasing dissatisfaction of the populace in their elected leaders over such subjects as banks, immigration, welfare, ignorance over the EU, etc. the voter is looking increasingly to right wing political parties such as UKIP and the BNP. If any of these start to get any power you can be sure that your rights will be eroded, in particular those that being a member of the EU has introduced.

-What you have talked about in your cliche ridden list is an Orwellian summary of so called benefits (I would prefer to call it propoganda). Just because some of these benefits may be virtuous and seemingly necessary it is automatically assumed that everything that this growing unaccountable self serving bureaucracy does is good for us. Most of us in the UK dont buy this.

Why let facts get in the way of truth? The people in the UK, and other countries it might surprise you to know, don't buy this because they blindly follow the bigoted ramblings of a right wing media. Even those liberal and socialist media outlets buy into this fallacy that (nearly) everything the EU does is bad for your home country, and yes, some aspects of their working practices do seem somewhat idiotic but then again you have to look at the overall, bigger picture but sadly people just pick up on the little things that are reported.

-Clearly the Germans have not learnt their lessons of the past if they did they would put a stop to the pooling of sovereignty amongst nation states.- Which is happening because the EU has destroyed the economies of most of Europe.

Perhaps they have learnt from their past because by having a distribution of sovereingity then past mistakes should not be repeated. Britain doesn't subscribe to that idea as it still believes in the Commonwealth ideal of being a major power of controlling other countries.

- Because people like you (useful idiots if you like) cannot argue these points you are left smearing those who do not believe in your precious superstate with your ridiculous cliches and stupid cartoons along with cries of xenophobia. it is all you can do.

But they are not cliches, they are actual facts of what the EU has done. You in fact asked that very question and there you have your answer but you don't like it.

- So my point about concentration camps is a serious one.

No its not, its an idiotic response that I would only expect from an uneducated British person who still believes that the '**** start at Calais' and I'm sure you're not one of them!

However this is something which the UK runs quite well now (or not, having read reports) with its immigration centres, asylum seeker centers and 'Big Brother' controlled cities!

- A free trading area with common standards of safety and training certifications may be, but the rest of it you and your bureaucrat friends who have never had a proper job in their lives can keep it.

WTF? A proper job? This from someone who is basically a middleman, but buying and selling people and the skills they still have. Ever seen Roots?

(Knocked up in a couple of minutes because I actually have to work)