Europe

[DodgyAgent]

"Soviet Union" Authoritarianism is not exclusive to the former soviet union, but is all around us and capitalism for example is even worse in terms of power concentration.

I just hope that if you drop from the EU, they apply to you the same reciprocal measures. For example no UK person can work in the EU unless they have a visa and has proven that a local person is not available. Boy I am gonna laugh my arse out if I live to see the situation turn around like that !

I also want to tell you that the scare with the countries joining in 2014 to the Uk labor market is mostly a media campaign by political reelection agendas. Ireland allowed those two countries to work from last year and there has been no doom, or mass murder, no civil wars nothing. Some people will come to the UK yes, but they will put under the same interviewing process as you and it is up to the employer to hire them, and if they do hire them, it means the employer had no other choice, because believe me they will definitely prefer a local candidate as you know from contracting experience.

I do agree that newcomers should not get benefits without having contributed to the economy, but constrain the debate to fixing that one issue , not going stupid and leaving the EU.

I am not quite sure what his has to do with my argument. You seem intent on selecting cliches to somehow put a point about the UK not leaving the EU. So for example you suggest that if Britain leaves then the rest of the EU will put up barriers to the uK. Why would they do this and in so doing spite themselves? only if they wanted to punish and bully the UK would they impose restrictions on trade and movement of labour against the UK.If Britain leaves it can negotiate its immigration with individual countries according to circumstances pertaining to each country rather than be forced to accept an EU directive.

Not only would this be counter productive but it would also prove my point that the EU intends to uses its power to control and is thus moving towards a totalitarian state. In which case the UK should get out now.

I myself have no problem with Romanians and Bulgarians coming to the UK, but many British people are worried that these people will come here and immediately sign up for free health care and benefits (which they are allowed to do under EU law if they sign up for job seekers allowance). My point is that I want the UK to decide upon its immigration laws not the EU.

As for your media scare - the powers that be got it wrong before so before you get too smug let us wait and see what happens.

You can sneer all you like at capitalism but as far as wealth creation is concerned it is the only show in town.

You seem to be another foreigner infesting this board with pro EU propoganda. Try arguing the points instead of sneering and bullying.

[DodgyAgent]

On British radio, a leading business organisation said 'UK business doesn't want to leave the EU, what they want is all the benefits but without having to pay the subsidies.' A bit like a contractor getting contractor rates but his client also providing them with all the permie benefits on top.

A quote from a socialist rag:



And a not quite socialist rag:

I can play this game of cutting and pasting articles in favour/against the European Union but I do not need to. I can also cut and paste articles about how the economies of Europe are becoming less and less important to the rest of the world.

So let us say that I broadly accept all of what these articles say. If Britain were to leave then it should renogotiate according to its interests. It may be that the Uk will have to accept some unfavourable concessions but this is not my point.

I will make one proviso for big business which is that they like lots of rules and bureaucracy because they know that these make it harder for new competition to enter markets. It is already beyond the reach of an entrepreneur wishing to start a business to set up a bank, a power plant, a water company, a car manufacturing business an airline.

My entire point is to do with inexorable rise of EU power. The refusal to let the Euro go has meant that countries are losing their sovereignty and this trend will only continue. Legislation is set by a European commission that is so corrupt it cannot get its accounts signed off. Do we really want these people yielding such power?

You can cut and paste away but you cannot explain how the power grab (and they are asking for more money ) by the unelected members of the European commission is going to do anything other than lead Europe to disaster

[darmstadt]

I myself have no problem with Romanians and Bulgarians coming to the UK, but many British people are worried that these people will come here and immediately sign up for free health care and benefits (which they are allowed to do under EU law if they sign up for job seekers allowance). My point is that I want the UK to decide upon its immigration laws not the EU.

I agree with you there but doesn't it say under the Maastricht Agreement that the non-economically active, i.e. unemployed, usually need to have health insurance and sufficient resources so as not to become an unreasonable burden on the host state. This means that EU citizens are only entitled to equal treatment depends basically on their economic status. If this is true then the UK are well withing their rights to either not allow them entry or to pay them benefits. In fact the Home Office have this to say:

Public funds
You do not need to work while you are living in the UK. But if you do not work, you must be able to support yourself and your family in the UK without becoming an unreasonable burden on public funds.

Healthcare
If you are an EEA national in the UK as a student or as a self-sufficient person you must have comprehensive sickness insurance for the duration of your stay in the UK.

So why do all these people get benefits then?

[darmstadt]

My entire point is to do with inexorable rise of EU power. The refusal to let the Euro go has meant that countries are losing their sovereignty and this trend will only continue. Legislation is set by a European commission that is so corrupt that it cannot get its accounts signed off. Do we really want these people yielding such power?

Yes, the EU has to be accountable which is why you need countries like the UK to be a major player in it. I actually think that if the UK have joined the Euro then possibly a lot of the problems that have occurred would not have but that was not to be.

What is now probably more worrying is that with more and more Easter European countries joining, who's economies are getting stronger because of that, will gain more and more power and eventually the EU will no longer be the EU. Look at the Eurovision song contest, or UEFA...

You can cut and paste away but you cannot explain how the power grab (and they are asking for more money ) by the unelected members of the European commission is going to do anything other than lead Europe to disaster

Well it seems that both the UK and Germany agree on something there, the EU budget needs to be slashed. The French are the main protaganists in increasing it, mainly because they benefit so well from the CAP but for some strange reason the Spanish are also for an increase...

Yes the European Commission are unelected but they are appointed by, for example, by Parliament so basically they're your representative in Europe. If you don't like who is appointed then complain to your MP who you voted for. Mind you looking at the list of commissioners, I think everyone would be complaining. For example: Peter Mandelson, Neil Kinnock, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten, Roy Jenkins, a bunch of failed politicians if ever you saw one

[DodgyAgent]

I agree with you there but doesn't it say under the Maastricht Agreement that the non-economically active, i.e. unemployed, usually need to have health insurance and sufficient resources so as not to become an unreasonable burden on the host state. This means that EU citizens are only entitled to equal treatment depends basically on their economic status. If this is true then the UK are well withing their rights to either not allow them entry or to pay them benefits. In fact the Home Office have this to say:



So why do all these people get benefits then?

Migration Watch UK: News: Housing

[DodgyAgent]

Yes, the EU has to be accountable which is why you need countries like the UK to be a major player in it. I actually think that if the UK have joined the Euro then possibly a lot of the problems that have occurred would not have but that was not to be.

What is now probably more worrying is that with more and more Easter European countries joining, who's economies are getting stronger because of that, will gain more and more power and eventually the EU will no longer be the EU. Look at the Eurovision song contest, or UEFA...

Unlike you I have no problem with other countries joining provided they adopt those rules that force them to open their markets i.e remove corruption, bring up standards of for example water management, harmonise standards of Universities.
If the UK had joined the Euro it would have been in deep trouble because labour would have stilled borrowed vast amounts of money. The UK was in as much S**t as the rest of the EU (except Germany, Finland etc).
The difference is that the UK could change its exchange rate to reduce its export costs and apply quantative easing.

The best thing for the Euro would have been to keep the Germans out.

[darmstadt]

Unlike you I have no problem with other countries joining provided they adopt those rules that force them to open their markets i.e remove corruption, bring up standards of for example water management, harmonise standards of Universities.

The best thing for the Euro would have been to keep the Germans out.

Who says I have a problem? Not me, I'm just pointing out a possibility which doesn't worry me at all, just makes life easier for me as I tend to also work in these countries. As they get up to strength then so do the offers of work increase.

Ah, that good old anti-German bias once again. The Daily Mail only had one article about Germany today and one about the war.

[DodgyAgent]

Who says I have a problem? Not me, I'm just pointing out a possibility which doesn't worry me at all, just makes life easier for me as I tend to also work in these countries. As they get up to strength then so do the offers of work increase.

Ah, that good old anti-German bias once again. The Daily Mail only had one article about Germany today and one about the war.

Whether it is anti german or not matters not one jot. What is important in this debate is whether Romanians will be able to claim benefits from day one.

[formant]

What is important in this debate is whether Romanians will be able to claim benefits from day one.

And that is simply not going to be the case, no matter how many sheep the tabloids have fooled on this.

They won't be able to claim benefits from "day one" at all. Here's a broader summary of how it works: Citizens Advice - Can workers from abroad get benefits in the UK?

They will have immediate access to health care and public schooling, but I doubt a whole lot of people will come over just for that if they're not planning on working/paying tax.

Also, migrants are significantly less likely to claim benefits than British Citizens. 7% vs 17% - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16643677

But no doubts the Wail will have convinced you otherwise.

[The Spartan]

It appears the Wail are is having some effect I found this posted by a few friends Is this the future for Britain? German cities plead for help from Berlin as 'social peace' is threatened by large number of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants | Mail Online