what happened to free speech

[speling bee]

Excellent idea. I will add the god of vodka and the goddess of huge bottom to my pantheon.

You would have made a fine ancient Athenian's disreputable country cousin.

[Mich the Tester]

Excellent idea. I will add the god of vodka and the goddess of huge bottom to my pantheon.

You should check out some of the old African religions; lots of big booty on show there. Bit of a shame that the monotheists banned and burned a lot of the old wood carvings of voluptuous girls.

[d000hg]

As an interested atheist I think that is incorrect. All religions find themselves shaped by society. Those who say that God has declared homosexuality a sin and that this cannot change just because society has changed, forget how their churches (in a Christian context) have changed their views on slavery, marital rape, killing witches and various other historical social conventions - which they used to justify on scriptural grounds. Otherwise, why aren't conservative Christians pressing for the death penalty for witchcraft?

This can all be justified from within a religious mindset by stating that the Holy Spirit (and therfore God) is alive in the Church, so the Church is as much a source of God's revelation as scripture is.

There's a difference between realising that you were mistaken, or having a standpoint which isn't explicitly stated in your bible, and deliberately changing your view to suit what society deems acceptable.

Adapting a religion to fit the majority view of the time basically says you're valuing the world's ungodly view over what God has said... "oh look this decade X is suddenly acceptable so we'd better relax on it to avoid upsetting people".

The church isn't called to be relevant, from a religious perspective the church is only becoming less relevant as secular society becomes more depraved - the gap widens but it's not for the church to narrow that by following the ungodly.

That's why I think real atheists probably should be more evangelistic... not complaining religions aren't open-minded but trying to educate the religious in order to 'save' them from such nonsense.

[Gibbon]

I don't see what that adds to the discussion. We could design a religion which is happy with other religions and doesn't say anything controversial (a bit like CofE ) but the key point is that if the believers believe their religion comes from a higher truth, they can't just decide to make it more relevant/popular without detracting from that truth.

I was simply pointing out that fervent followers of monothestic religions such as the Abrahamic ones will tend to inhibit free speech because anything that contradicts their 'truth' is 'false'.

All I can say is that I 'm thankful for the enlightenment and the casting off of the shackles of Abrahamic doctrine and that I hope with better education the Arab world will soon join us.

[Mich the Tester]

I was simply pointing out that fervent followers of monothestic religions such as the Abrahamic ones will tend to inhibit free speech because anything that contradicts their 'truth' is 'false'.

All I can say is that I 'm thankful for the enlightenment and the casting off of the shackles of Abrahamic doctrine and that I hope with better education the Arab world will soon join us.

Me too, but some of the depravity we see every day and the lack of moral backbone in many sections of society, particularly those in positions of power who should be setting an example, annoys me, and I find myself agreeing with religious people on more and more issues.

[speling bee]

There's a difference between realising that you were mistaken, or having a standpoint which isn't explicitly stated in your bible, and deliberately changing your view to suit what society deems acceptable.

Adapting a religion to fit the majority view of the time basically says you're valuing the world's ungodly view over what God has said... "oh look this decade X is suddenly acceptable so we'd better relax on it to avoid upsetting people".

The church isn't called to be relevant, from a religious perspective the church is only becoming less relevant as secular society becomes more depraved - the gap widens but it's not for the church to narrow that by following the ungodly.

That's why I think real atheists probably should be more evangelistic... not complaining religions aren't open-minded but trying to educate the religious in order to 'save' them from such nonsense.

So how would it be different:

- to move from thinking homosexuality is a sin to God created some people gay

than:

- to move from thinking that God condemned the descendants of Ham to slavery Curse of Ham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to believing that God created man in His image and we are all born equal

and similar change to views on women, death penalty for witchcraft etc.

The only difference that I can see is that the shift has not yet occurred for homosexuality. Otherwise, why are you not crying out for a return to witch killing. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Is it not ungodly to suffer a witch to live? Are you not just adapting to the majority view?

Western society (and the world as a whole) is 250 years through a progressive shift in values and religion has continuously adapted alongside it. And if you take the Holy Spirit in the Church view, that is fine.

[Old Hack]

Western society (and the world as a whole) is 250 years through a progressive shift in values and religion has continuously adapted alongside it. And if you take the Holy Spirit in the Church view, that is fine.

This is a key point, as I believe the issues we have, are with people who still wish to interpret their religion from source, rather than from an evolved POV.

I work with a English Asian, and his view of Islam is far, far removed from a fundamentalist; it's a reluctance to acceot a shift in values that leads to issues.

[speling bee]

This is a key point, as I believe the issues we have, are with people who still wish to interpret their religion from source, rather than from an evolved POV.

I work with a English Asian, and his view of Islam is far, far removed from a fundamentalist; it's a reluctance to acceot a shift in values that leads to issues.

As I said before I'm an atheist but sympathetic to liberal religion. Fundamentalism is the real problem. Maybe God gave the commandments that he gave to the Jews or the Arbs or whatever, because they were relevant to them then. Maybe we need different guidance, and the Church, alive with the Holy Spirit is how God offers this guidance. If the opposite was true, then as well as offering agriculturally related advice to the Hebrews, God might have given commandments on data protection and nuclear waste storage to ensure ongoing relevance.

Islam and Christianity (and Judaism but the global numbers make this less prominent) are showing an increasing element that is fundamentalist and political. And these individuals and groups cause problems. There we are.

[Gibbon]

Me too, but some of the depravity we see every day and the lack of moral backbone in many sections of society, particularly those in positions of power who should be setting an example, annoys me, and I find myself agreeing with religious people on more and more issues.

Ok, please could you point to a time in history when the church had full power and the world was relatively free from the vices and abuses.

Religion does not have an exclusive call on morality.

[Old Hack]

As I said before I'm an atheist but sympathetic to liberal religion. Fundamentalism is the real problem. Maybe God gave the commandments that he gave to the Jews or the Arbs or whatever, because they were relevant to them then. Maybe we need different guidance, and the Church, alive with the Holy Spirit is how God offers this guidance. If the opposite was true, then as well as offering agriculturally related advice to the Hebrews, God might have given commandments on data protection and nuclear waste storage to ensure ongoing relevance.

Islam and Christianity (and Judaism but the global numbers make this less prominent) are showing an increasing element that is fundamentalist and political. And these individuals and groups cause problems. There we are.

I spoke with a vicar the other day, who intimated they don't really teach the bible as a factual representation of what actually happened, but more as a guide to morality, of how to behave, to be a good person.

There's also a Church in Holland, I do believe, who teach christianity as not so much a religion, but as a path to being a better person.