what happened to free speech

[xoggoth]

Most perceptive post d00000000000000000gh! It is a complex situation.

I have known some Christians who are just so tolerant of everything (one even said "gays must have been made by god, so what's the problem?") that, while nodding politely, I am wondering what on earth is the point of them having a religion at all, what exactly do they believe in?

Quite happy that the religious don't engage in gay marriages, have abortions, assisted suicide etc as long as they do not influence the law to prevent those not of their faith from doing so but appreciate that is difficult on some issues. If one views abortion as murder, for example, can you allow it whatever the faith of the mother may be? I suppose if people genuinely think others will go to hell they are failing in their Christian duty not to try to get them on the path to righteousness.

Nevertheless, I think we have to compromise and work towards a society that permits people to follow their own beliefs as far as possible, while allowing those of faith (or none) to use persuasion if they want their own views to hold sway. That should be possible for Christianity, surely you only save a sinner by making him see the light? Simply forcing him into some approved behaviour and leaving his views and nature untouched won't save him from damnation.

Unless we do that, the war will go on.

[d000hg]

That should be possible for Christianity, surely you only save a sinner by making him see the light? Simply forcing him into some approved behaviour and leaving his views and nature untouched won't save him from damnation.

You are right, salvation by faith not by good deeds; i.e. forcing someone to obey laws doesn't earn you holy points

However, as you point out with abortion standing by isn't a great option. Even with issues which don't appear to hurt anyone, if you believe in absolute morality then you have a duty to speak out against such practices. That doesn't mean you go telling gay people they're evil for instance, but does mean you might oppose laws which allow gay marriage... though the proper legal channels. [only using gay marriage as a semi-topical example, not because I have a beef about it]

[EternalOptimist]

Yes, this religion stuff is all very nice, but it's not what God told you, it's what some bloke has told you.

It was written down, recycled, edited, translated then interpreted so many times you dont know what you are reading.

Imagine you are cast adrift like rob crusoe, you believe in God, but you sort of forget all the detail, you dont have a holy book, or a preacher. So you find this fat pink animal with a corkscrew tail. is it a donkey, a cat or a labrador or a pig ? I dunno , but lets eat it anyways

is that a sin ?

some other bloke gets washed up. he believes in god.

is it the same god as yours ? there is no way of knowing

you offer him a bacon butty. is that a sin ? there is no way of knowing

he might be an infidel, should you kill him ? there is no way of knowing

no religious person can know any of this untill some bloke tells them what to think

and they tell US about free speech ? ha

[Gibbon]

To be honest I'm not sure it's possible to reconcile a strong faith [in many religions] with a tolerant free position. If the religion you fully believe to be true has facets which are in some way intolerant, then society telling you "you have freedom of religion as long as it doesn't conflict with our humanist position" doesn't get you anywhere... watering down your religion to avoid offending other people is not being true to your beliefs if they do come from a higher power (which you believe they do).

This problem is symptomatic of the monothesitic religions where there is only the 'one'. Plurist religions such as Hinduism has less of an issue, or at least in my experience.

I was talking to a Hindu friend a few years back about what he gets up to at xmas. Basically he said that they celebrate it and infact his father lamented the decline of religious programming around xmas and Easter. He father had decided when they came over here that they would add the western god to their pantheon and that was that.

Before Christianity asserted itself with Jewish like zeal many different religions got on quite fine side by side in the Roman world.

[d000hg]

Yes, this religion stuff is all very nice, but it's not what God told you, it's what some bloke has told you.

It was written down, recycled, edited, translated then interpreted so many times you dont know what you are reading.

Imagine you are cast adrift like rob crusoe, you believe in God, but you sort of forget all the detail, you dont have a holy book, or a preacher. So you find this fat pink animal with a corkscrew tail. is it a donkey, a cat or a labrador or a pig ? I dunno , but lets eat it anyways

is that a sin ?

some other bloke gets washed up. he believes in god.

is it the same god as yours ? there is no way of knowing

you offer him a bacon butty. is that a sin ? there is no way of knowing

he might be an infidel, should you kill him ? there is no way of knowing

no religious person can know any of this untill some bloke tells them what to think

and they tell US about free speech ? ha

Your entire supposition is based on the atheistic world-view that God can't talk directly to people. Which kind of makes further discussion difficult when several main religions say the opposite.
If you don't believe in God then the entire point is moot, surely because if someone claims they have heard something directly from God, you'd dismiss that instantly.

[d000hg]

This problem is symptomatic of the monothesitic religions where there is only the 'one'. Plurist religions such as Hinduism has less of an issue, or at least in my experience.

I was talking to a Hindu friend a few years back about what he gets up to at xmas. Basically he said that they celebrate it and infact his father lamented the decline of religious programming around xmas and Easter. He father had decided when they came over here that they would add the western god to their pantheon and that was that.

Before Christianity asserted itself with Jewish like zeal many different religions got on quite fine side by side in the Roman world.

I don't see what that adds to the discussion. We could design a religion which is happy with other religions and doesn't say anything controversial (a bit like CofE ) but the key point is that if the believers believe their religion comes from a higher truth, they can't just decide to make it more relevant/popular without detracting from that truth.

[Old Hack]

I don't see what that adds to the discussion. We could design a religion which is happy with other religions and doesn't say anything controversial (a bit like CofE ) but the key point is that if the believers believe their religion comes from a higher truth, they can't just decide to make it more relevant/popular without detracting from that truth.

Not controversial? Want to rethink that?

[speling bee]

I don't see what that adds to the discussion. We could design a religion which is happy with other religions and doesn't say anything controversial (a bit like CofE ) but the key point is that if the believers believe their religion comes from a higher truth, they can't just decide to make it more relevant/popular without detracting from that truth.

As an interested atheist I think that is incorrect. All religions find themselves shaped by society. Those who say that God has declared homosexuality a sin and that this cannot change just because society has changed, forget how their churches (in a Christian context) have changed their views on slavery, marital rape, killing witches and various other historical social conventions - which they used to justify on scriptural grounds. Otherwise, why aren't conservative Christians pressing for the death penalty for witchcraft?

This can all be justified from within a religious mindset by stating that the Holy Spirit (and therfore God) is alive in the Church, so the Church is as much a source of God's revelation as scripture is.

[SupremeSpod]

http://youtu.be/J6ZdUZFy2BI

NSFW - Wear headphones!

[xoggoth]

Excellent idea. I will add the god of vodka and the goddess of huge bottom to my pantheon.