what happened to free speech

[Mich the Tester]

Ok, please could you point to a time in history when the church had full power and the world was relatively free from the vices and abuses.

Religion does not have an exclusive call on morality.

Absolutely right, but here in NL there seems to be a sort of moral vacuum in politics and business and among the few people really trying to fill it quite a few do so from a religious angle; that's not my angle of choice, but I think some moral dialogue is essential, so you end up talking with those who want to talk about it.

[xoggoth]

Indeed, do some seriously imagine that Victorian Britain was free of vice and turpitude? (Not sure what that means but I like the sound of it).

It is true that in recent decades we have gone too far in the other direction with an over-emphasis on self, not just giving up on religious values but on necessary, practical social values as well. But really, with proper education and a more realistic approach to welfare etc, we can restore those without getting religion again.

If you look at surveys of world religious belief vs murder rate, the church scandals, the disproportionate number of Muslims and Catholics in our prisons, the violent nature of some religious nations, it is clear that religion does not do one damn thing for the behaviour of humanity. Prosperity, good education, a cohesive society where we can relate to others and an effective justice system do. Japan has one of the lowest rates of religious belief in the world.

[Gibbon]

Absolutely right, but here in NL there seems to be a sort of moral vacuum in politics and business and among the few people really trying to fill it quite a few do so from a religious angle; that's not my angle of choice, but I think some moral dialogue is essential, so you end up talking with those who want to talk about it.

Agreed. Maybe the education system needs to pick up on this, history and philosphy in particular lend themselves to be used for moral guidance. Most people do conduct themselves well though it's just the bad that make the media precisely because it is wrong. The abuses of power are just more open to be seen nowdays and so it's seems there is more of it than there used to be.

[Mich the Tester]

It is true that in recent decades we have gone too far in the other direction with an over-emphasis on self, not just giving up on religious values but on necessary, practical social values as well. But really, with proper education and a more realistic approach to welfare etc, we can restore those without getting religion again.

Agreed. Maybe the education system needs to pick up on this, history and philosphy in particular lend themselves to be used for moral guidance. Most people do conduct themselves well though it's just the bad that make the media precisely because it is wrong. The abuses of power are just more open to be seen nowdays and so it's seems there is more of it than there used to be.

I think there's a lot to be gained from education in the arts. Literature, art, theatre and music can help develop empathy to understand of the feelings of others and inspire others. They can also help people to see that there is so much more to life than making money or gaining 'status' to the cost of other people. Just a shame that here in NL the arts have been the first to suffer massive spending cuts as the government we've had recently seemed to measure everything in terms of financial input and financial output. That, in a country which gave the world some of the greatest artists of all. I think there's a desperate need for culture in our society right now, maybe even more than the usual economic policies.

[speling bee]

I am suspicious of the good old days view. Here's an example.

In the good old days it was held that at marriage a woman had consented to sex with her husband and that that consent could not be revoked, and that the concept of marital rape was therefore a contradiction in terms. Consider how many acts of what we would now consider to be rape must have occurred. I see that we have moved to a more moral society in this situation and in many other social situations that have progressed in a way that we might see as civil rights.

[Mich the Tester]

I am suspicious of the good old days view. Here's an example.

Most of us are, and rightly so. I just think that particularly in the education, or perhaps the selection, of 'leaders', whether that's in business, politics or 'public service', something is going very very wrong. There are countless examples from directors getting multi million bonusses while chucking thousands of employees on the scrapheap, to politicians treating UK, NL and EU parliament expenses systems as their personal cash machines, to directors of Dutch housing associations and even primary schools bankrupting what used to be public services by speculating on interest rate derivatives. I spoke to a young guy last week at the rugby club who's doing a business degree and was complaining that he had to do a mandatory course in 'ethics'. I just asked him whether he'd watched the news at any time in the last ten years or so. He seemed to have no idea why this was deemed necessary to become a manager in business. Maybe that should be reversed; if you want to manage, then go and learn about ethics, culture, history, the arts and sciences and so on, and think about what you can learn from playing in a team; once you've done that we'll send you on a two week course in bookkeeping and basic purchasing/selling techniques for the 'business' aspects.

Perhaps we need more polymaths in ejumakayshun.

[speling bee]

Most of us are, and rightly so. I just think that particularly in the education, or perhaps the selection, of 'leaders', whether that's in business, politics or 'public service', something is going very very wrong. There are countless examples from directors getting multi million bonusses while chucking thousands of employees on the scrapheap, to politicians treating UK, NL and EU parliament expenses systems as their personal cash machines, to directors of Dutch housing associations and even primary schools bankrupting what used to be public services by speculating on interest rate derivatives. I spoke to a young guy last week at the rugby club who's doing a business degree and was complaining that he had to do a mandatory course in 'ethics'. I just asked him whether he'd watched the news at any time in the last ten years or so. He seemed to have no idea why this was deemed necessary to become a manager in business. Maybe that should be reversed; if you want to manage, then go and learn about ethics, culture, history, the arts and sciences and so on, and think about what you can learn from playing in a team; once you've done that we'll send you on a two week course in bookkeeping and basic purchasing/selling techniques for the 'business' aspects.

Perhaps we need more polymaths in ejumakayshun.

Greed is good.

[Mich the Tester]

Greed is good.

So we've been told for the last 30 years. We're greedy and we're bust.

[speling bee]

So we've been told for the last 30 years. We're greedy and we're bust.

I blame Thatcher.

[Mich the Tester]

I blame Thatcher.

I don't though. She had a job to do in a particular context and she did it, quite well on balance. I blame those who took her ideas from the 80s to be edicts from a higher power that will always work in every time and context, and haven't moved on to see that things have changed and the problems today are different to the problems she had to deal with and need different solutions.