what happened to free speech

[d000hg]

So how would it be different:

- to move from thinking homosexuality is a sin to God created some people gay

than:

- to move from thinking that God condemned the descendants of Ham to slavery Curse of Ham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to believing that God created man in His image and we are all born equal

and similar change to views on women, death penalty for witchcraft etc.

The only difference that I can see is that the shift has not yet occurred for homosexuality. Otherwise, why are you not crying out for a return to witch killing. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Is it not ungodly to suffer a witch to live? Are you not just adapting to the majority view?

Western society (and the world as a whole) is 250 years through a progressive shift in values and religion has continuously adapted alongside it. And if you take the Holy Spirit in the Church view, that is fine.

On any specific subject, the church may or may not be correct in it's view. But that does not change the truth of whatever the right answer is... women either are or aren't on an equal footing with man, sex either is or isn't for marriage between a man and a woman, etc. Saying church should automatically follow society as it progresses denies there is any absolute truth in the first place. Which puts us back in viewing religion through a humanist mindset in the first place.

Some ways in which society has 'progressed' have been driven BY the church. Others have happened in direct opposition of the church. The word 'progressive' implies all progress is positive, rather than simply change. Are we a more progressive society, or simply a more permissive one?

[d000hg]

Sadly, this is apt far too often.

[Taita]

I agree, completely.

The term English Asian is used quite a lot. My colleague describes himself thus. His wife, whom I have had dinner with (with my colleague), thinks of herself as British, despite having the same background. It's how you feel I guess. I don't feel British, so don't call myself it.

I agree. Subjectively, what matters is how one thinks of oneself. It is the objective use of such terms that I find incongruous particularly after two or more generations have been born in the same country.

"Spacecadet: You are alone, very alone infact.
Find yourself a length or rope, or if heights bother you, a suitable length of hose and quiet country lane some where."

The bluntness of your wit is matched only by the dullness of your humour.

[Mich the Tester]

Are we a more progressive society, or simply a more permissive one?

We're a technologically advanced society that broadcasts our cultural backwardness on Reality TV.

[EternalOptimist]

Sadly, this is apt far too often.

stick a turban on his 'ead
and it becomes even oftener

[speling bee]

On any specific subject, the church may or may not be correct in it's view. But that does not change the truth of whatever the right answer is... women either are or aren't on an equal footing with man, sex either is or isn't for marriage between a man and a woman, etc. Saying church should automatically follow society as it progresses denies there is any absolute truth in the first place. Which puts us back in viewing religion through a humanist mindset in the first place.

Some ways in which society has 'progressed' have been driven BY the church. Others have happened in direct opposition of the church. The word 'progressive' implies all progress is positive, rather than simply change. Are we a more progressive society, or simply a more permissive one?

The church continues to change its mind on issues in line with a progressive society. Nobody is saying that it should automatically follow society but if the Holy Spirit is alive in the church and the church changes, then it would suggest that morality changes in the context of society.

Try to take an absolutist moral view on these questions:

Should the right of government come from democratic mandate with full adult sufferage or from the divine right of kings?
Is slavery right or wrong?
Is serfdom right or wrong?
Should black people be allowed to use the same public services as white people?

If your view is the progressive one, and that this truth is both absolute and eternal, then ask yourself why the scriptures and early churches were not demanding universal sufferage. The answer is of course that that would be a nonsense because there would be no cultural context for that argument.

The proper answer (and it is not inconsistent with religion) is that morality exists within a cultural and social context, and that the fact that morality exists (you might argue) is a sign of God's will to guide us through his living Church within the societies which tha Church serves.

Are we more permissive? Well, we now permit gay men to have consensual sex with each other without going to prison. We no longer permit men to rape their wives without going to prison. Make what you will of that. I do agree by the way that the church has had a role in progress.

[Gibbon]

I do agree by the way that the church has had a role in progress.

So do I, mainly regressive though.

As I have already alluded most of western progress has been since the enlightenment.

[Mich the Tester]

So do I, mainly regressive though.

As I have already alluded most of western progress has been since the enlightenment.

Hmm, yes, but was the enlightenment in the sciences not somewhat inspired by the Renaissance, where classical ideas gained traction again in Europe? Were the enlightenment philosophers not to some extent building on the work of classical philosophers? I don't know though, I'm not the classicist here.

[Spacecadet]

The bluntness of your wit is matched only by the dullness of your humour.

Get you

[Doggy Styles]

(Christ) who for us men and our salvation came down from heaven and
he was made flesh of the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary; and was
made man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate and was buried.
And on the third day he rose again according to the scriptures.

----------------------------------------------------

This , the Nicene Creed, is the irreducible core of western Christianity. Which bits are useful for teaching?

Oh dear, here we go. Why not pick out the bits from religious books about the world being built in six days, or 5 fishes and 2 loaves feeding thousands of people, or on dying one gets 72 virgins to oneself?

I didn't say the Bible, or the Koran. Not literally at least. Most of the stories in there are just metaphors anyway.

I'd have thought it was obvious in the context I wrote it, following the post about what the the vicar said, that I was referring to the message being taught, like loving thy neighbour, not stealing, and other things that make people better people. If those teachings are spread due to religious beliefs, then that is showing religion in a good light.