P*ss P**r pay

[Spacecadet]

Welcome to modern Britain, where actually doing stuff is considered monkeys work and bulltulipting is the only valuable skill.

Has it ever really been any different?

[d000hg]

Has it ever really been any different?

That's what I thought too - managers have always got the big bucks

[oracleslave]

It doesn't matter what budget the Chancellor comes out with. Britain's economy will never recover until people stop listening to sales people and start listening to engineers -- civil, mechanical, software, etc.

It is a sea change in cultural values that is needed, and it is not going to happen overnight, if ever.

How is listening to grunts going to help? Without sales, grunts are just superfluous overhead. It's strategic thinkers and the laws that allow them the flexibility within which to manoeuvre that are required.

[doodab]

How is listening to grunts going to help? Without sales, grunts are just superfluous overhead. It's strategic thinkers and the laws that allow them the flexibility within which to manoeuvre that are required.

I've seen several businesses fail because sales people made promises that turned out to be undeliverable. Some ******* strategy that turned out to be. How is making up some bulltulip and winging it more strategic than working out whether and how something is possible before you commit to doing it?

[oracleslave]

How is making up some bulltulip and winging it more strategic than working out whether and how something is possible before you commit to doing it?

You're now making stuff up and extrapolating what I said to an extreme level to try and make the point. I certainly didn't suggest putting lying, bulltulipters in charge. As a former delivery and practice manager I am fully aware of the need to vet commitments from sales to customers. The point darrenb and many others on here seems to miss is that without sales, strategists, business minds etc, none of your projects would likey exist. Those roles are far more important to business and the economy than the people just "doing a bit of techie stuff."

[darrenb]

How is listening to grunts going to help? Without sales, grunts are just superfluous overhead.

Engineers viewing themselves as grunts... wouldn't happen in Germany... or at IIT in Mumbai... why is England being passed by? Self-defeating mentality.

[oracleslave]

Engineers viewing themselves as grunts... wouldn't happen in Germany... or at IIT in Mumbai... why is England being passed by? Self-defeating mentality.

It's got nothing to do with Germany vs the UK.

It's how the globalised world views delivery resource.

[doodab]

Those roles are far more important to business and the economy than the people just "doing a bit of techie stuff."

Except of course that if the "bit of techie stuff" doesn't get done there is no business.

Out of interest, who do you think makes the strategic decisions at companies like Daimler, BMW, Bae, Intel, Siemens? They all have engineers on the board and many of them have engineers at the helm.

No doubt they are all grunts to you.

[bobspud]

Has it ever really been any different?

Yes. My late uncle made a fortune making parts for the British car industry. My gardener worked on the designs for The Concord. Theirs were valuable skills at one time.

[oracleslave]

Except of course that if the "bit of techie stuff" doesn't get done there is no business.

Well that's obviously not true. I've had whole contract where not much has happened. Doesn't mean it wasn't profitable business. FFS, Milan has made a career out of this...in Germany!

Out of interest, who do you think makes the strategic decisions at companies like Daimler, BMW, Bae, Intel, Siemens? They all have engineers on the board and many of them have engineers at the helm.

I never said SOME Engineers don't make excellent leaders. That's different to listening to all of them.

No doubt they are all grunts to you.