News article on Poverty

[expat]

Typical Labour scheme - create a whole new level of unsustainable bureacracy with thousands of peope to administer it. Why not just raise the lower limit of threshold tax?

Indeed.

Example: my partner has quite a low salary, but still pays tax on it. She also has a child at school, so would normally receive child tax credit. However because I am living with her, my income is taken into account and she does not receive the tax credit; but she still pays the tax. So in effect she is paying tax on my income.

Fair? No: we were honest, and in this system that is expensive.

[dang65]

One of my friends has a theory, which is way too radical to ever be implemented. Everybody, man, woman and child, in the country, gets a benefit of a fixed amount per week, say £60 - since it's not means tested, you lose all the costly state apparatus for dispensing it. This replaces all the income supports and dole money, and all tax breaks. Those who want to skive can do so. Those who want to work a little to supplement it, can do so. Those who want to earn a lot can work hard, and still get the benefit of the safety net.

Where can I vote for this?!

What I would do...

1. Sell my big house.
2. Buy a little place in the country, probably with a bit of land, but no more than I could afford with no mortgage, plus I'd keep some savings.
3. Live off the allowance (300 quid a week including allowances of partner and three children) - using it to pay for council tax, water rates, fuel and food.
4. Do whatever the hell I wanted. Grow own veggies, keep chickens, learn a few new techie skills for occasional IT contracts to pay for holiday/decorating/transport.

Bliss.

[BoredBloke]

That is the real legacy of Thatcherism, it's bred a generation of people who no longer think it's a stigma to not work. When old industry closed and left fathers long-term unemployed, the kids of those families learned to respect the father's who milked the system.

No that is just plain fookin lazy. If people can (and do) milk the system then turn off the milk.

[TheBigYinJames]

No that is just plain fookin lazy. If people can (and do) milk the system then turn off the milk.

The trouble is that poverty benefit is part of a general Social Contract. If you starve the poor, the poor come round your house with alsatians and burn you out. Social benefits is the protection money we pay to keep society relatively lawful. You upset that equation too far, then you get Zimbabwe.

[HairyArsedBloke]

Why do people assume that there is a market for the labour that those on benefits can deliver?

Those that say that immigrants can find jobs ignore that employers are buy a level of skills at a huge discount. Immigrant workers are doing jobs well below what they are capable of doing. They also have a cost-base a lot lower that a domestic worker because they live in low quality, multiple occupancy housing. It is seen at a temporary condition that the mainly young can endure for a while.

Those on benefit are not withholding their labour because they have a better offer from the state. They have abandoned efforts to market their labour because of the lack of demand. Faced with that, they are optimising the only source of sustenance they have. Cutting benefits will not drive people back to work; it would only drive up the so-called back economy and crime.

[Churchill]

Those on benefit are not withholding their labour because they have a better offer from the state. They have abandoned efforts to market their labour because of the lack of demand. Faced with that, they are optimising the only source of sustenance they have. Cutting benefits will not drive people back to work; it would only drive up the so-called back economy and crime.

So, you advocate a policy of appeasement?

[HairyArsedBloke]

No, I advocate supply side reform. Improve the quality of the product and choke off alternative sources of labour in some markets.

[Bagpuss]

Why do people assume that there is a market for the labour that those on benefits can deliver?

Those that say that immigrants can find jobs ignore that employers are buy a level of skills at a huge discount. Immigrant workers are doing jobs well below what they are capable of doing. They also have a cost-base a lot lower that a domestic worker because they live in low quality, multiple occupancy housing. It is seen at a temporary condition that the mainly young can endure for a while.

Those on benefit are not withholding their labour because they have a better offer from the state. They have abandoned efforts to market their labour because of the lack of demand. Faced with that, they are optimising the only source of sustenance they have. Cutting benefits will not drive people back to work; it would only drive up the so-called back economy and crime.

I don't agree, I have a friend who is a supervisor at a factory, they have plenty of jobs available but can't find the people. the job does not require great skill, it's manual work, all training is provided. With overtime the pay is reasonable enough to lead an average lifestyle. They have employed many Poles because the people who could take these jobs would rather be on benefits. This is just one example. There is plenty of reasonable paid work around, it's not 1983 FFS!

Knowing some Polish guys, the general view is the English underclass are just lazy.

[expat]

There is plenty of reasonable paid work around, it's not 1983 FFS!

Knowing some Polish guys, the general view is the English underclass are just lazy.

So I do not expect to find anybody here ever complaining again about the market, right?

[Bagpuss]

So I do not expect to find anybody here ever complaining again about the market, right?

Moaning about the cyclical state of the contracting market is a different thing to giving up work entirely to live off benefits. Out of work contractors subsidise themselves. Even if there were no more contracting work there would still be better options than scrounging.