The Lady's not for turning !!!

[Peoplesoft bloke]

What do you think would have been the political and social consequences of following on with the Labour policies where we as a nation were held to ransom by a few very large unions. The UK in the 70's was bloody horrible and it is because we had got into such a mess then that it made the 80's so bad for a large number of people.

We'd be like France - and they still have a car industry.

For the first 4 years of the 70s we had a Conservative government who presided over such triumphs as the the 3-day week.

[sasguru]

The class system is to be blame for most things. For much of the 20th century the accident of birth, not meritocracy, decided your position in life.
So the situation was that we had an untalented officer and managerial class.
On the other hand the working class could not see that they had to compete with the world - they bought the myth of British superiority.
Put these two attitudes together and British industry declined so precipitiously that I would bet it is unprecedented in peace time.

Thatcher just hastened the process the along. She was a reductionist with not much vision and not too much intelligence.

[BoredBloke]

We'd be like France - and they still have a car industry.

For the first 4 years of the 70s we had a Conservative government who presided over such triumphs as the the 3-day week.

And why did we have the 3 day week? To conserve electricity because of shortages caused by industrial action. I remember sitting in the dark because of power cuts as a kid in the 70's. As for our car industry - Have you seen the show Clarkson did about BL? It was a joke.

There is no way BL could be made to work especially with the unions in tow. Their cars were out of date and badly made and change was impossible as the workforce and their unions wouldn't allow it.

[snaw]

What do you think would have been the political and social consequences of following on with the Labour policies where we as a nation were held to ransom by a few very large unions. The UK in the 70's was bloody horrible and it is because we had got into such a mess then that it made the 80's so bad for a large number of people.

Agree something had to be done about the unions, also agree that maybe some of those industries were dead on their feet. Don't agree that you just go in - smash the unions, destroy the communities then walk away and wipe your hands and don't think about the next steps.

Bit like going into the Iraq war without a post invasion plan.

She got an economic boost from north sea oil and privatisations (Some good, some not so good). In all in all she's judged favourably but it's not all rosy. She left her party in tatters, which it's only now starting to recover from (And is completely decimated in scotland), she created some of the urban problems we see now, you could argue she prolonged the northern ireland conflict (Nationalists would say so), she was right for her era, for a short period but then the world overtook her and she lost touch. Some would say she missed some golden opportunities.

I despise her, but as I've gotten older I can recognise some of the good things she did. If only the other side could maybe acknowledge the same ...

[lilelvis2000]

I was most happy to be living in Canada during 70's, 80's and 90's. So missed all the rubbish times..only to discover things are still a bit rubbish. the UK could use its coal - with the new technologies out now it is quite "clean". But at the time Thatcher closed them down there wasn't that insight is suppose. The council tax law was also a bit of a mess. She didn't cure the rip-off culture either.

[threaded]

I was most happy to be living in Canada during 70's, 80's and 90's. So missed all the rubbish times..only to discover things are still a bit rubbish. the UK could use its coal - with the new technologies out now it is quite "clean". But at the time Thatcher closed them down there wasn't that insight is suppose. The council tax law was also a bit of a mess. She didn't cure the rip-off culture either.

IIRC they did want to mothball many of the pits, but there was a lot of the stuff that is now happening to that life-sciences company and no one would bid for the work, at any price. So they ended up being allowed to flood and collapse.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

And why did we have the 3 day week? To conserve electricity because of shortages caused by industrial action. I remember sitting in the dark because of power cuts as a kid in the 70's. As for our car industry - Have you seen the show Clarkson did about BL? It was a joke.

There is no way BL could be made to work especially with the unions in tow. Their cars were out of date and badly made and change was impossible as the workforce and their unions wouldn't allow it.

The stuff about the car industry is partly true, partly revisionist. Clarkson and his ilk wouldn't buy a VW golf if BL had made it (the Maestro had a golf gearbox IIRC BTW) because they have an total and instant bias against anything made in this country without any reference to whether it's actually any good. Some Brit cars were shocking but not all and nothing much in Europe was really any better once you set prejudice aside. Are you really suggesting that French cars of the 70s were any better (or their unions any less militant?). Whilst Unions were part of the problem, they were far from all of it. Cars like the Triumph 2000 and Rover 2000 of the 70s were easily a match for anything BMW was doing at the time - and German unions are not renowned for their weakness.

Maggie didn't believe in state ownership of anything so she smashed it all. The european car makers allowed it and benefited.

[Bagpuss]

Maggie didn't believe in state ownership of anything so she smashed it all. The european car makers allowed it and benefited.

It's one thing taking on the unions, another to smash the industries with an Iron fist. It doesn't take much vision to destroy something and offer nothing in it's place. The then new service sector jobs could move overseas, and most have.

Watching the Grand Prix this weekend, Renault were runing 3rd their name all over the advertising hordings. I felt sad that we had no representation as a car manufacturer, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, all did.
Do we seriously believe that we could not have been to this day as successful as the French or the Italians in building cars? Makes you proud to be British. I wonder if it makes Thatcher proud?

[threaded]

One should remember the politicians had a major part in this destruction. Ford had their most modern factory in Doncaster, but were arm twisted into shutting it and moving production to a well out of date site. There are many examples of companies trying to modernise, but with the unions on one side, and politicians on the other, both forcing them to take the poor option what could they do?

As to Renault being all over Formula 1. Formula 1 was invented by the French for the benefit of the french car industry, and the rules are often re-jigged to favour the french. It is a testement to how good manufacturers are outside of france that they get anywhere in the rankings at all...

[BoredBloke]

The stuff about the car industry is partly true, partly revisionist. Clarkson and his ilk wouldn't buy a VW golf if BL had made it (the Maestro had a golf gearbox IIRC BTW) because they have an total and instant bias against anything made in this country without any reference to whether it's actually any good.

Can't agree with that. From what I can tell on Top Gear is that supercars with a UK history eg Aston/Jag/TVR tend to do quite well. I've not noticed them talking them down. BL was a joke. Many of the cars in its range were in direct competition other cars it made - how stupid is that. Their cars were poorly constructed and unreliable.

Some Brit cars were shocking but not all and nothing much in Europe was really any better once you set prejudice aside. Are you really suggesting that French cars of the 70s were any better (or their unions any less militant?). .

The French tend to drive French cars. They would pick a french car over than of another nation. In the UK we drove any car but the BL ones because the BL ones were rubbish. Who aspires to having a Marina or an Allegro?

Whilst Unions were part of the problem, they were far from all of it. Cars like the Triumph 2000 and Rover 2000 of the 70s were easily a match for anything BMW was doing at the time - and German unions are not renowned for their weakness.

But BL was not renowned for reliability or build quality. The germans on the otherhand...... It doesn't matter if your car is a match for a competitors if it fails to work.

Maggie didn't believe in state ownership of anything so she smashed it all. The european car makers allowed it and benefited.

There is a reason why state ownership can be bad and BL typifies this. It is a bad thing when ultimately a minister is in charge of making decions based on the need of the business since they have one eye on opinion polls and the other on their next job. i.e. they don't take the tough and unpopular decisions when needed.