Sort of confirmed my suspicions

[vetran]

How do other countries manage it?

Precisely. Find out and you can do it too.

[WTFH]

Other countries manage it, so it is that simple. Measure against your peers.

You're the one that claimed other countries manage to do it - yet you say you don't know of any, so you can't back up your claim.

Precisely. Find out and you can do it too.

[vetran]

You're the one that claimed other countries manage to do it - yet you say you don't know of any, so you can't back up your claim.

Ah making stuff up the way YOU lose an argument!

From the original article I linked.

British patients spend significantly longer in hospital for the same operations and procedures compared with other countries, according to a study by the healthcare think-tank the King's Fund in 2015.

It found that patients in Sweden spent 15 per cent less time in hospital, while in Australia it was 18 per cent, in France 20 per cent and in Norway 36 per cent.

One of the first things you do when looking at a business efficiency is compare it to its peers. If it takes Swindon 2 days to deliver product at a cost of £30 a pallet and Hull 4 days at a cost of £80 you can probably make Hull cheaper & faster by reorganising it or changing suppliers.

[WTFH]

One of the first things you do when looking at a business efficiency is compare it to its peers. If it takes Swindon 2 days to deliver product at a cost of £30 a pallet and Hull 4 days at a cost of £80 you can probably make Hull cheaper & faster by reorganising it or changing suppliers.

Of the 4 you listed, France would be the closest comparison - similar population size and similar population age profile. Yet in France they spend 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK.
So, France spends more and has better results.
Equally, doctors are more keen there to get patients onto prescriptions and out of the waiting room, hence why there are so many pharmacies (about 2x as many as the UK). They've got a higher % of nurses than the UK, a longer life expectancy, a lower obesity rate and lower rate of heart disease.

[vetran]

Of the 4 you listed, France would be the closest comparison - similar population size and similar population age profile. Yet in France they spend 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK.
So, France spends more and has better results.
Equally, doctors are more keen there to get patients onto prescriptions and out of the waiting room, hence why there are so many pharmacies (about 2x as many as the UK). They've got a higher % of nurses than the UK, a longer life expectancy, a lower obesity rate and lower rate of heart disease.

Oh so you can easily identify issues with our health service that if we fixed we could save £400 a night per blocked bed! See how easy it is?

They also charge €10 a time for a Doctors appointment and you have to have a health card before they see you. If you are non French they want a credit card to cover the bill. You missed those bits!

Their care home costs are cheaper than ours.

https://www.french-property.com/news..._elderly_costs

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden & Norway (where our Norse ancestors came from) have many sensible processes to protect their health service.


Oh by the way I didn't list them the Kings Fund did. In their expert opinion they believe they are relevant.

[SueEllen]

Oh so you can easily identify issues with our health service that if we fixed we could save £400 a night per blocked bed! See how easy it is?

They also charge €10 a time for a Doctors appointment and you have to have a health card before they see you. If you are non French they want a credit card to cover the bill. You missed those bits!

Their care home costs are cheaper than ours.

https://www.french-property.com/news..._elderly_costs

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden & Norway (where our Norse ancestors came from) have many sensible processes to protect their health service.


Oh by the way I didn't list them the Kings Fund did. In their expert opinion they believe they are relevant.

The French people I've met have no complaints about their health system. The only complaints are from foreign nationals who have had to present a credit card or other proof of payment before they can get treatment.

The Swedish and Australian people I've met have some complaints. So do some of the Brits I know who have worked in Australian healthcare.

The few people I know and met who live in Norway are healthy so I've not had a talk with them about their health care system.

[WTFH]

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden have many sensible processes to protect their health service.

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

[malvolio]

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

Need to be a bit careful about Australian population density. Some 95% of them live within 5 miles of the sea...

I've always thought the best model is basically the NHS with mandatory insurance policies for chronic illness and old age support. Problem there is paying for the insurance. And the care home/hospice/recovery system (such as it is) is badly broken (and I speak as one who is getting ever closer to needing it!) which if it worked properly would help hospital services enormously.

[vetran]

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

No you just got things wrong. The bit I left out was that the Kings fund selected the countries so I added it

Population density affects how long a person stays in hospital - interesting?

Actually charging and restricting for resources frequently affects how they are used. I can't get an appointment with my doctor unless I start phoning at 8am, our French friend phones up at 10 am and gets an appointment that day. An organisation that charges fees tends to have better resource control as the accountants see profit.

I was totally for charging for missing appointments.

[vetran]

Need to be a bit careful about Australian population density. Some 95% of them live within 5 miles of the sea...

I've always thought the best model is basically the NHS with mandatory insurance policies for chronic illness and old age support. Problem there is paying for the insurance. And the care home/hospice/recovery system (such as it is) is badly broken (and I speak as one who is getting ever closer to needing it!) which if it worked properly would help hospital services enormously.

The problem with bringing in Insurance is that the scumbag insurance firms would wriggle out of responsibility and a significant percentage wouldn't buy insurance just like those who didn't pay for a pension.