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    #21
    Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
    Would've agreed, had you stopped before the I.E.

    However, they do fundamentally change the assessment of whether it applies, and hence they may fundamentally change the outcome, depending on how the assessment is made (e.g. whether CEST is used).

    You could argue that a lot of contracts that should be inside will now be inside, but there will also be a lot of contracts that would probably not be deemed inside at tribunal, yet will nevertheless be deemed inside, and are unlikely to be pursued through the tribunal system (time consuming, uncertain outcome). There's no effective means of remedy.
    Equally that remedy is unnecessary as those contracts will have been advertised as inside IR35 so anyone taking such a contract will have known before hand where they stood.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

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      #22
      Originally posted by eek View Post
      Equally that remedy is unnecessary as those contracts will have been advertised as inside IR35 so anyone taking such a contract will have known before hand where they stood.
      Yes, it would be a pretty artificial situation whereby a contractor accepted a contract as being inside and then, subsequently, claimed otherwise. It's conceivable, I suppose, but unlikely (e.g. JLJ scenario). That's why the shift in assessment, without a material change in the legislation, "works" in their own (limited) terms and, indeed, why it was originally proposed back in 1999.

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        #23
        Originally posted by bobspud View Post
        Don't forget that the way it went in the public sector was a farce brought on by the treasury bullying the other departments. That won't happen in the private sector. There is not be the same type of leverage. Frankly its as much as HMRC can do to get a few quid out of most private sector organisations in corporation taxes.
        ^^^

        The changes worked in the public sector as HMRC could apply significant pressure to ensure that departments implemented it without thought to the consequences - why do you think so many global statements were sent out. Equally you can watch the NHS were although we know NHS Improvements statement that everyone is inside was rescinded but that rescinding of the memo doesn't seem to have reached all trusts.

        In the private sector the only thing people will care about is cost and people. If they can still get people inside IR35 and some places and some roles will be able to be filled those roles may end up inside. Otherwise I strongly suspect your typical contractor will see some different paperwork but not much else will change...
        merely at clientco for the entertainment

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          #24
          Originally posted by eek View Post
          ^^^

          The changes worked in the public sector as HMRC could apply significant pressure to ensure that departments implemented it without thought to the consequences - why do you think so many global statements were sent out. Equally you can watch the NHS were although we know NHS Improvements statement that everyone is inside was rescinded but that rescinding of the memo doesn't seem to have reached all trusts.

          In the private sector the only thing people will care about is cost and people. If they can still get people inside IR35 and some places and some roles will be able to be filled those roles may end up inside. Otherwise I strongly suspect your typical contractor will see some different paperwork but not much else will change...
          ^^^

          And lets not forget that everyone that feels aggrieved about being shoved inside Ir35 only needs to gather evidence of their true situation and make a claim to HMRC if found to be correct they will get a tonne of cash back. I would expect a tsunami of piss to be swamping HMRC and the naughty blanket assessment causing departments in the run up to Tax end

          There might even be a swath of ambulance chasing PPI type claims to be made out of unfair damage to the business by incompetent civil service bods making incorrect assumptions.

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            #25
            Now that sounds more like it

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              #26
              There's also the potential now, given the exodus, that PS departments will start pushing roles outside IR35 to attract staff back.
              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

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                #27
                Originally posted by bobspud View Post
                There might even be a swath of ambulance chasing PPI type claims to be made out of unfair damage to the business by incompetent civil service bods making incorrect assumptions.
                I'm not sure that there will be a swath, but it doesn't take many people to go to tribunal / court and win and it puts a lot of pressure on the civil service, HMRC and the Chancellor.

                Hopefully, there will be more people willing to take that fight on.
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                  #28
                  I don't buy it that private sector companies are going to be more willing to offer outside roles. There are plenty of risk averse companies out there who will want to take the safest option. And if out inside rates become too expensive, there's always Wipro and the like.
                  Rule Number 1 - Assuming that you have a valid contract in place always try to get your poo onto your timesheet, provided that the timesheet is valid for your current contract and covers the period of time that you are billing for.

                  I preferred version 1!

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                    #29
                    Originally posted by bobspud View Post
                    ^^^

                    And lets not forget that everyone that feels aggrieved about being shoved inside Ir35 only needs to gather evidence of their true situation and make a claim to HMRC if found to be correct they will get a tonne of cash back. I would expect a tsunami of piss to be swamping HMRC and the naughty blanket assessment causing departments in the run up to Tax end

                    There might even be a swath of ambulance chasing PPI type claims to be made out of unfair damage to the business by incompetent civil service bods making incorrect assumptions.
                    Gosh, I really hope this is the case.

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by BoredBloke View Post
                      I don't buy it that private sector companies are going to be more willing to offer outside roles. There are plenty of risk averse companies out there who will want to take the safest option. And if out inside rates become too expensive, there's always Wipro and the like.
                      I think initially companies will lean towards an inside determination whilst they figure things out. Rates may go up for inside roles to compensate but not by very much... maybe £50 on a £500 per day role. Rates could also go down on outside roles though as there will be far more competition for a smaller number of roles.

                      I do think though that overtime this change may encourage companies to really get their head around IR35 and start to treat contractors in the correct manner. The flexible workforce is a valuable resource for companies and they are still going to require it in the future. Some minor changes in working practices and a less risk averse approach to substitution and the problem will be solved.

                      Recently I had to regularly sit in the vicinity of a director who was running a project that was looking at contractors and consultancies in a major bank. He had developed a classification to distinguish between the two.. Contractors were supervised and Consultancies were unsupervised was the mantra heard over and over again. The lack of understanding in respect to how flexible workers should be treated was really troubling. This change may solve that problem and actually remove a headache that contractors have been having for many years.

                      I'm am going to make the jump to perm for a couple of years (at least) while they figure it out though. My role is outside currently but I do not have the energy to spend months fighting with HR over what CEST says I am or am not. Trying to explain IR35 to these people is a stress I don't need in my life.

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