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chancellor-will-create-crisis-self-employed

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    #11
    Originally posted by bobspud View Post
    I am finding this all a little concerning that too many of you expect the chancellor to continue to subsidise your clients by giving us a tax loophole. I think its time to take a seat and think about it for a moment.

    If you are required to pay roughly 44% tax and save at least 30% of your turnover to protect you from sudden bench times then thats down to you as a business owner to set a sensible day rate. The market is now awash with idiots that think 500 a day is the going rate to be a senior contributor to xyzzy project and that needs to stop.

    Fact is most of you have fallen for rates far bellow what most clients will pay and at worst have been feeding agents that are making 20 - 40% off your nativity

    If we have to go thought a bloodbath to shove most of you back into full time employment then thats the right course of action


    In all seriousness, it depends. In IB, margins are fixed and tight because that's the model banks have been able to dictate to agencies.

    In other industries, you're probably right but in other areas, if there's a £600 day rate available, why would the agent give you the gig on £550 when he can give someone else the gig on £400 and trouser £200 by lying and saying that you were second choice and telling the client you've taken something else?
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

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      #12
      Originally posted by PokemonStay View Post
      From the OP: -
      extending the IR35 changes to the private sector would almost certainly not achieve the Government’s professed aim: tackling disguised self-employment. If the Government was serious about tackling this problem, it would introduce a statutory definition of self-employment to clear the confusion about employment status once and for all.

      You seem happy to blast almost everyone on CUK. As your determination of who is caught and who is not is correct.

      You might well find that HMRC will persecute the "innocent" and leave the "guilty".

      Be very careful what you woish for - it may come true.
      Out of interest how many years have you been contracting?

      For me the vast majority of contractors that I have met are completely clueless. I have heard such amazing bulltulip ranging from:

      "I am outside IR35 because I bring my own special mug to staff meetings..."

      Helpdesk guys that sit on call centres that have to ask to take a break and use client kit and read scripts all day but still telling anyone that will listen that they are outside because of a bunch of little scripts they wrote at home and brought in on a USB stick... FFS!

      What it is time to do is state for the record that we all need to pay full sodding taxes regardless of our status and frankly the dividend changes has pretty much managed that.

      From that point on we need to start acting like businesses and set the proper rates as a result just become far more expensive for the end clients.

      They either pay or we give up and go back to being permanent.

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        #13
        Originally posted by bobspud View Post
        feeding agents that are making 20 - 40% off your nativity
        The baby Jesus wept.

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          #14
          Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
          The baby Jesus wept.
          I hate auto correct so flipping much...

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            #15
            Originally posted by bobspud View Post
            I hate auto correct so flipping much...
            It's for aunts

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              #16
              Fact is these reforms don't fundamentally change IR35, i.e. you will still be able to run your business on your own account and pay yourself whatever you want as a salary if you really are outside IR35. In other words the Chancellor can simply argue that he's making sure no-one is dodging tax. I'm not sure MP's could argue against that like they did with the NI hikes the last time.
              I'm alright Jack

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                #17
                Originally posted by BlasterBates View Post
                Fact is these reforms don't fundamentally change IR35, i.e. you will still be able to run your business on your own account and pay yourself whatever you want as a salary if you really are outside IR35. In other words the Chancellor can simply argue that he's making sure no-one is dodging tax. I'm not sure MP's could argue against that like they did with the NI hikes the last time.
                Would've agreed, had you stopped before the I.E.

                However, they do fundamentally change the assessment of whether it applies, and hence they may fundamentally change the outcome, depending on how the assessment is made (e.g. whether CEST is used).

                You could argue that a lot of contracts that should be inside will now be inside, but there will also be a lot of contracts that would probably not be deemed inside at tribunal, yet will nevertheless be deemed inside, and are unlikely to be pursued through the tribunal system (time consuming, uncertain outcome). There's no effective means of remedy.

                At the same time, I don't see this change being nearly as controversial as a lowering of the VAT threshold if that's pushed through. Some backbench Tories have explicitly said they'll vote against that. I don't see any votes against rolling out the IR35 rules, if it's announced (because the gov't whips will have called it already).

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                  #18
                  Originally posted by Pip in a Poke View Post
                  It's for aunts
                  Bob's your nephew's uncle.

                  Comment


                    #19
                    Originally posted by BlasterBates View Post
                    Fact is these reforms don't fundamentally change IR35, i.e. you will still be able to run your business on your own account and pay yourself whatever you want as a salary if you really are outside IR35. In other words the Chancellor can simply argue that he's making sure no-one is dodging tax. I'm not sure MP's could argue against that like they did with the NI hikes the last time.
                    The Chancellor will argue that, if he's going to bring this in - that was the argument when it was introduced in the public sector, and that was successful so why would you change the record?

                    The changes introduced in the public sector this year didn't fundamentally change IR35 itself, but it did fundamentally change the way that it is implemented and introduced a number of cases where contractors who understand IR35 and believe that they are outside were forced to either leave or accept that they were inside IR35. The introduction of blanket assessments for some roles clearly changed the way that some people who were outside IR35 had to operate, because they were no longer given the opportunity to run their businesses they way that they wanted to - it was / is a case of being made to say you are inside IR35 when you know that you aren't. Clients making assessments using a flawed tool which does not even consider one of the three pillars of employment fundamentally changed the way that IR35 was being determined in the public sector - granted not everyone used CEST to make the assessment, but 450000 assessments have been made using a tool which HMRC themselves acknowledge does not look at all aspects that can be used to determine employment status.

                    I would also argue that if the private sector changes are made along the same lines as those in the public sector, there will be a fundamental change to IR35 since the 5% expense allowance will be removed. That raises the prospect of many companies being forced to trade insolvently since 100% of the invoice value now needs to be paid as income tax. That's a pretty fundamental change to IR35 that's already in place in the public sector, and I would expect the same rule to be put in place if the same changes are rolled out to the private sector as well.
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                      #20
                      Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
                      You could argue that a lot of contracts that should be inside will now be inside, but there will also be a lot of contracts that would probably not be deemed inside at tribunal, yet will nevertheless be deemed inside, and are unlikely to be pursued through the tribunal system (time consuming, uncertain outcome). There's no effective means of remedy.
                      Don't forget that the way it went in the public sector was a farce brought on by the treasury bullying the other departments. That won't happen in the private sector. There is not be the same type of leverage. Frankly its as much as HMRC can do to get a few quid out of most private sector organisations in corporation taxes.

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