Brummie calls out NLUK on IR35

[northernladyuk]

A couple of points here are not correct and there are a couple of reasons why.

Hang around professional long enough and you'll see a vast majority of threads are about the OP not knowing enough about IR35 so totally disagree about people knowing about IR35 and coming on for an opinion. Secondly NATs selective tulip modding failed to being the context over where blossom got a number of factors about IR35 wrong which is why we got in to it in the first place so the evidence is right there in that very thread.

You are right, we don't know so all the more reason to know the finer points to help make your decision about amount of risk hence the discussion.

It's clearly stated arguments like this that add so much to CUK discussions.

[NotAllThere]

...NATs selective tulip modding failed to being the context over where blossom got a number of factors about IR35 wrong which is why we got in to it in the first place so the evidence is right there in that very thread.

The modding was to rescue the other thread which was descending into Not too fussed about this one retaining context. .

[northernladuk]

The modding was to rescue the other thread which was descending into Not too fussed about this one retaining context. .

Leave the Bob stuff in though. That's dead useful

[bobspud]

I think anyone that mis-understands IR35 or its importance needs to go and read the end page of the ESS tool that HMRC released on the public sector this year...

Since IR35 started HMRC have been storing up a flipping ma-husive piggy bank of idiots. We have all seen them onsite. Some of you reading this are probably exactly who I am aiming this at.

They have 20 years to investigate you from the point that you submit a return. But that time is immaterial as soon as they find you being a twat... Have a little think about all the little ducks and dives that you may or may not have committed and if they might be enough to open the gates of hell...

Then think about the point that at any time one day in the next 20 years HMRC get a free look at this years books and can then arbitrarily go back as far as they like including re-opening all the companies you think you have closed and basically turn your life upside down...

That my friend is IR35 in a nutshell.

When HMRC have finally got themselves in a position to robo-chase us using Watson or tools like it. It will make the Montpellier lot look like a pub lunch.

I have truly lost count of the sheer numbers of temp-sheep that I have worked near over the years. Even when the public sector stuff was going on in the run up to April I was meeting chaps that had not the first clue there was even legislation in place to stop them. They just thought that one day they worked for HP/CGI/Cap and the next week they were their own master...

What a car crash!

[OwlHoot]

They have 20 years to investigate you from the point that you submit a return. But that time is immaterial as soon as they find you being a twat... Have a little think about all the little ducks and dives that you may or may not have committed and if they might be enough to open the gates of hell...

Although I've heard of this 20 year time limit, I think in practice they would be very unlikely to go back further than seven years.

For a start, I think there is no legal obligation for you or your accountant to retain company records for more than seven years.

But that said, even an adverse tax ruling on seven years supposedly outside IR35 would be enough to scupper most disguised temps.

[northernladyuk]

I think anyone that mis-understands IR35 or its importance needs to go and read the end page of the ESS tool that HMRC released on the public sector this year...

Since IR35 started HMRC have been storing up a flipping ma-husive piggy bank of idiots. We have all seen them onsite. Some of you reading this are probably exactly who I am aiming this at.

They have 20 years to investigate you from the point that you submit a return. But that time is immaterial as soon as they find you being a twat... Have a little think about all the little ducks and dives that you may or may not have committed and if they might be enough to open the gates of hell...

Then think about the point that at any time one day in the next 20 years HMRC get a free look at this years books and can then arbitrarily go back as far as they like including re-opening all the companies you think you have closed and basically turn your life upside down...

That my friend is IR35 in a nutshell.

When HMRC have finally got themselves in a position to robo-chase us using Watson or tools like it. It will make the Montpellier lot look like a pub lunch.

I have truly lost count of the sheer numbers of temp-sheep that I have worked near over the years. Even when the public sector stuff was going on in the run up to April I was meeting chaps that had not the first clue there was even legislation in place to stop them. They just thought that one day they worked for HP/CGI/Cap and the next week they were their own master...

What a car crash!

A lot of contractors will have closed down their Ltd's in that period or will have very limited funds kept in Ltd. It's another barrier to the HMRC, although not technically insurmountable I guess.

[eek]

20 years is only for absolute outright fraud - in reality it is 4 years from the end of the tax year see Time limits for tax assessments, claims and refunds . Then if they find things within those 4 years that are really interesting they will go back further...

As for using Watson - HMRC don't need anything that clever* - the work is all done via agency reporting regulations and NI details. Nothing else is really required for the easiest cases...


* Watson is an unusable junk dead-end when it comes to AI. Other tools are already far cheaper, quicker and more practical...

[northernladyuk]

20 years is only for absolute outright fraud - in reality it is 4 years from the end of the tax year see Time limits for tax assessments, claims and refunds . Then if they find things within those 4 years that are really interesting they will go back further...

As for using Watson - HMRC don't need anything that clever* - the work is all done via agency reporting regulations and NI details. Nothing else is really required for the easiest cases...


* Watson is an unusable junk dead-end when it comes to AI. Other tools are already far cheaper and far more practical...

I saw a Watson demo and presentation on social care recently, and it was bizarrely unimpressive.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

In fairness, on most tax-related matters we spend more time on here debating the technicalities and hypothetical risks of most things way in excess of the actual risk of an HMRC investigation (see also: travel expenses and 24 month rule, settlements/s624/s660).

It wouldn't be very interesting if every thread in Accounting/Legal ended with "don't worry, nothing will probably ever happen".

[SueEllen]

In fairness, on most tax-related matters we spend more time on here debating the technicalities and hypothetical risks of most things way in excess of the actual risk of an HMRC investigation (see also: travel expenses and 24 month rule, settlements/s624/s660).

It wouldn't be very interesting if every thread in Accounting/Legal ended with "don't worry, nothing will probably ever happen".

Then a few posters would log on and admit they got investigated.