So I think its finally dawned on IPSE's management

[bobspud]

I hear what you are saying, but thats a quantum leap from where we are today. Today, the battle will (for those staying in the PS) be to make sure the date rate covers the loss of expenses and the employers tax costs. But go down the Uber 'we want our rights' is a different kettle of fish.

Imagine project manager Bob wanting a developer for 6 months.. currently he may have to pay more per day to cover the cost and get the technical skills he needs. With the full rights in placve, he is looking to get HR signed off on sickness pay, holiday pay, maternity pay, employment dismissal rights, yada, yada, yada.

No it isn't . Get off your lazy arse and go and read the documents supporting cl1 then when you have finished reading them tell other contractors on your site about how agency workers rights will apply to them if they are brought inside IR35 and get them to read the documents too.

Rinse and repeat. Our defence is to make sure everyone knows their legal rights

As I have said in the future of contracting threads this is going to blow the departments wide open when they realise that they are on the end of a cluster ****. Their choice come April is to tell HMRC that the contractors are outside IR35 and they will defend them if need be. Or they have to grant full benefits to all their contractors after 12 weeks because that's the law.

[eek]

No it isn't . Get off your lazy arse and go and read the documents supporting cl1 then when you have finished reading them tell other contractors on your site about how agency workers rights will apply to them if they are brought inside IR35 and get them to read the documents too.

Rinse and repeat. Our defence is to make sure everyone knows their legal rights

As I have said in the future of contracting threads this is going to blow the departments wide open when they realise that they are on the end of a cluster ****. Their choice come April is to tell HMRC that the contractors are outside IR35 and they will defend them if need be. Or they have to grant full benefits to all their contractors after 12 weeks because that's the law.

Unless the contractors were foolish enough to opt out...

IPSE the organisation that keeps on giving by creating things that don't do what they thought they would due to other people being sneakier....

[stek]

Let's face it lads, they've bled us dry the bastards, what has IPSE ever done for us?

[eek]

so, you have better access to government. Government listen to you. You know how to lobby, and have had success with lobbying government. You have past experience of changing the mindset of senior civil servants and know how it's best to do that.

And you decide that your best approach, rather than trying to get involved and help, is to do nothing apart from sit on the outside telling cuk how great you are instead. You're the one with all this experience, and you decided that you would sit back and then gloat when people get thrown under the bus.

That makes you a special kind of f***ing dick in my book.

Actually I gave you one (probably the only one) argument you could use against it - that the entire campaign was based on figures that were not statistically valid and were then extrapolated well beyond any logical assumptions. And I passed it to IPSE to respond as I couldn't work out how to phrase a secondary question as you well know.

Then IPSE seem (note very careful use of words there) to have done absolutely nothing with it - even when various people have gone to various Government departments including No 10 to "lobby".

Now I've spent all night debating with myself whether to explicitly post the above. And finally before I go to bed I've made my mind up - post and (be) damn(ed).

So yes someone is a special sort of f***ed up dick around here and it isn't me.

I've played a very straight bat with this consultation - from day 1 my viewpoint has been and I've continually stated that it was an unwinnable battle - find a means to protect yourself. Care to go back and check my posts on this since June I think I've been very consistent in my advice.

[malvolio]

Actually I gave you one (probably the only one) argument you could use against it - that the entire campaign was based on figures that were not statistically valid and were then extrapolated well beyond any logical assumptions. And I passed it to IPSE to respond as I couldn't work out how to phrase a secondary question as you well know.

Then IPSE seem (note very careful use of words there) to have done absolutely nothing with it - even when various people have gone to various Government departments including No 10 to "lobby".

Now I've spent all night debating with myself whether to explicitly post the above. And finally before I go to bed I've made my mind up - post and (be) damn(ed).

Actually I was way ahead of you on that, having posted my own analysis of the figures the day they were published. Although I do agree they were a complete fiction.

And IPSE have done as much as they can with it, directly and through the IR35 Forum and the OTS.

So while banging your drum out here is all very well and good, neither you, me nor IPSE - nor any of the other major bodies involved - have been listened to. That is not our failing but that of the people we elected to represent us.

So the question remains. WTF are you going to do about it after the event? I have a plan, what's yours?

[eek]

Actually I was way ahead of you on that, having posted my own analysis of the figures the day they were published. Although I do agree they were a complete fiction.

And IPSE have done as much as they can with it, directly and through the IR35 Forum and the OTS.

So while banging your drum out here is all very well and good, neither you, me nor IPSE - nor any of the other major bodies involved - have been listened to. That is not our failing but that of the people we elected to represent us.

So the question remains. WTF are you going to do about it after the event? I have a plan, what's yours?

If you don't know my plan you clearly haven't read my posts regarding this for the past 5 months.

That includes both the plan I have for personal stuff and exactly what I expect to happen from April onwards. In fact I'm sure I posted that latter plan on IPSE's forum earlier today.

Trouble is that plan isn't about contractors being freelance. It's about getting contractors the rights that come from being treated as agency staff. And that needs to be done quickly before agencies force contractors to use umbrellas and nothing but umbrellas.

But really IPSE should have a f***ing plan on how to play the game given the current deck of cards - this was the most likely result of the consultation. The only change in our hand is the uber tribunal result. And If you are asking me what to do you really are admitting IPSE is a waste of space.

[SussexSeagull]

I know it isn't all IPSEs fault but they do put themselves forward as being the contractor's champions.

Contracting has gone from being a few specialists to having entire big projects staffed by contractors. Eventually the government were going to take notice and act (although as a few people are struggling for work at the moment this era might be drawing to a close).

The government listened to business and decided there was a shortage of IT skills a few years back and issued Visa's to a lot of Indians. I personally dispute there was ever much of a shortage, but a lot of these now have leave to remain and tend to have lower outgoings and undercut us.

To be fair some of us haven't helped the cause. Some of the tax schemes people went into had evasion written all over them and quite a lot of contractors have sat at the same desk for years and are embedded in an organisation it is disguised employment.

[SueEllen]

If you don't know my plan you clearly haven't read my posts regarding this for the past 5 months.

That includes both the plan I have for personal stuff and exactly what I expect to happen from April onwards. In fact I'm sure I posted that latter plan on IPSE's forum earlier today.

Trouble is that plan isn't about contractors being freelance. It's about getting contractors the rights that come from being treated as agency staff. And that needs to be done quickly before agencies force contractors to use umbrellas and nothing but umbrellas.

But really IPSE should have a f***ing plan on how to play the game given the current deck of cards - this was the most likely result of the consultation. The only change in our hand is the uber tribunal result. And If you are asking me what to do you really are admitting IPSE is a waste of space.

You mean telling all contractors to join Unite, or some other union, and get them to fight for their equal rights?

Btw the unions don't like umbrella companies and the media has now worked out what they are.

[eek]

You mean telling all contractors to join Unite, or some other union, and get them to fight for their equal rights?

Btw the unions don't like umbrella companies and the media has now worked out what they are.

Yep as our current support organisation is not providing suitable help join a union. Unison or the GMB would be the direction I would be pointing people in. I believe unison are looking for a fight or 300, I know the GMB are. I don't know what unite is up to but its more pick the appropriate union for where you are working and that's probably going to be unison.

As for umbrellas I don't think it's that relevant here. The unions want public sector staff paid directly from the public sector, they don't want umbrellas or other employment methods getting into the mix.

[bobspud]

so, you have better access to government. Government listen to you. You know how to lobby, and have had success with lobbying government. You have past experience of changing the mindset of senior civil servants and know how it's best to do that.

And you decide that your best approach, rather than trying to get involved and help, is to do nothing apart from sit on the outside telling cuk how great you are instead. You're the one with all this experience, and you decided that you would sit back and then gloat when people get thrown under the bus.

That makes you a special kind of f***ing dick in my book.

No I think you are confusing not being in a pointless club with not getting involved...

Both Eek and myself have senior access to our relevant departments and as such we have both wandered into the right offices and given them the ammunition they needed to understand that dragging every contractor straight in side IR35 will be a very bad idea for them.

I believe that information has not fallen on deaf ears. The question that is left to be answered is why a bored half drunk architect could find the flaw in the governments plan while our formal representatives seemed to fail miserably