Ken Livingstone

[Dactylion]

Remember when good old thatcher referred to Mandela as a terrorist?

Didn't Nelson Mandela start up Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation)? Wasn't that specifically set up to carry out forms of violence against the SA Government? A bit like the IRA/pIRA was the 'armed wing" of Sinn Fien?

I think both could pretty legitimately be called terrorist organizations.

The fact that Mandela and Adams etc would argue that they had no other choice at the time and both have subsequently crossed the fence from "terrorist" to "statesman" etc etc doesn't negate the facts.

NB I make no judgement about the end justifying the means and I have a lot of respect for Mandela in later years but that doesn't get away from the facts.

[SueEllen]

Disagree.
If Hamas put down their arms there would be peace, If Israel did it they would be destroyed within days.
There are a high population of Arabs and Muslims that live in Israel without any problems.
Hamas openly state and also educate - that Jewish children are legitimate targets.
And send thousands of rockets discriminatory into Israel. Don't be an apologist for Hamas.
Unfortunately whatever the plight of the Palestinians and where the fault lies - it is made significantly worse by Hamas.

I remember the Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin who were both trying to sort out a peace settlement in the 90s.

Rabin got shot by a Jew, Israel became hard-line against the Palestinians again so the PLO were sweep out by elections in Palestine to be replaced with Hamas. The PLO were always on the news supposedly telling Hamas to behave. However the Palestinians thought the PLO were sell outs especially after Rabin got killed and they got nothing.

So Hamas is the Palestinian reaction to Israel's hard-line treatment of them.

On both sides there are people who don't want the other side to exist and will do anything including killing their own leaders to ensure that.

In regards to the Arabs not having problems in Israel I've heard otherwise. Ethiopian Jews are treated very badly. So the problem is more about "race" than religion.

[NotAllThere]

Ken said:

If you are antisemitic you hate Jews, not just the ones in Israel, you hate your neighbour in Golders Green, or your neighbour in Stoke Newington. It’s a deep personal loathing like racism..

Here, he seems to be saying that hatred for Jews in Israel is ok. Thing is, racism is hatred of an identifiable people group. Legitimising hatred of a group of people is not a good thing, but this is apparently what Ken is doing - Ken promotes hatred towards Jews in Israel, and is therefore a racist and an apologist for racists.

The Israeli government and army doing tulip stuff doesn't mean that Ken is in the right.

[SueEllen]

Ken said:
Here, he seems to be saying that hatred for Jews in Israel is ok. Thing is, racism is hatred of an identifiable people group. Legitimising hatred of a group of people is not a good thing, but this is apparently what Ken is doing - Ken promotes hatred towards Jews in Israel, and is therefore a racist and an apologist for racists.

The Israeli government and army doing tulip stuff doesn't mean that Ken is in the right.

Strange interpretation of his words.

[sasguru]

I'd not expect that from an old, experienced SAS programmer.... I thought you were better than that.

This is what the media and the politicians want us to believe - the Muslims can't rule themselves, they are incapable. Talk about stereotyping and racism. Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, Malaysia, Tunisia, Morocco. Some examples of functioning democracies. Iraq can't be blamed on the Iraqis - It has been plundered and raped non step by the west and their puppet allies (who they installed initially).

The systems that are being forced upon these lands is a western form of democracy. Democracy works but it needs to be adapted to the environment it is in.

Hey I'm not that old

I'm not saying Muslims per se can't rule themselves, just pointing out that the Arab Spring was not an unqualified success in providing the liberty and freedom that was craved. Part of this was due to extreme Islamism not allowing it especially in Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood.
The fact also remains that Israel is the only real democracy among its close neighbours, Lebanon has too many shadowy groups behind the scenes to really understand what's going on, although the people of Lebanon undoubtedly would like democracy.

[milanbenes]

Livingstone is (and always has been) a weapons grade bell-end. I used to live in his neighbouring constituency, and when he was trying to get re-elected, I was plagued by calls from his call centre muppets, and always responded in the same way. You can send that idiot round to my door, but he'd better have armed bodyguards...

MORDAC is back !!!!

How's going Mordy, long time no see

Milan.

Milan.

[milanbenes]

the "Passat"

recap - 2003 HighLine estate tdi 120,000miles turbo had stopped working long ago, so in the end it was an sdi,


moved to a new home for the next phase of his life last summer, sold for the local equivalent of 800gbp and half a tank of diesel,


Milan.

[BrilloPad]

Strange interpretation of his words.

+1

I thought Red Ken was saying that he hates all racists.

[PurpleGorilla]

+1

I thought Red Ken was saying that he hates all racists.

You can't use the word Jew without being branded a racist. It's the same rule for using the word Muslims. It stifles any discussion, which is infuriating because hardliners (and there are Christian hard liners too) are committing some sick acts of violence, but if we try to talk about it we are racists. What a crock of tulip.

[Mordac]

MORDAC is back !!!!

How's going Mordy, long time no see

Milan.

Milan.

Fairly reasonable Beansy, thanks. How's you?