Junior doctors

[DaveB]

Exactly my point. Take it or leave it.

Time to bring those Eastern European nurses junior doctors ...

You mean the ones that won't be able to work here if the proposed immigration changes go through our we leave the EU?

[unixman]

Slight correction to my earlier post re pensions. I said a GP of roughly my age would obtain a pension about 9 times better than mine on retirement. It is actually more like 11 times when you take into account the doctor's earlier retirement age. He will be receiving his pension for 29 years, assuming we both live to 89, while mine will pay out for 24 years.

It is genuinely surprising that when looking at the pension provision for an average NHS doc, you have to use the word "million" quite a lot. The retiring GP will receive 115k immediately as a gift, plus 38k for the next 29 years, very roughly. 115+29*30 = 1.217 million pounds. Million. (The figure for me is 0+24*4.5 = 108k.)

In order to get on terms with the doc, I would have to build up a pension pot of over 2 million pounds. Millions. Plural. And that would come entirely out of my pre-tax income of course, not from the UK taxpayer. And it would be subject to stock market risk. The only answer would seem to be to marry a doctor.

So yes I am happy for the junior doctors to strike. Everyone should be allowed to strike and the occasional short strike shows we have a healthy society. But it's my money they are asking for, and the answer, this time, is No.

[darmstadt]

I'm waiting for a privileged contractor to write a letter like this:

Last night I was the sole doctor on site caring for over 100 patients who were acutely unwell with complications from their cancer. Some couldn't breath, some were fighting overwhelming infections with literally no immune system, one had bleeding in their head, one had a blockage in their bowels. If I made a mistake because I was tired, any one of these patients could've died.

Every cancer patient in the south Birmingham region has a direct line to call for advice or help. 11 new unwell patients arrived and I assessed and treated them too. There was not a single manager in the whole hospital. Last night, I ran the oncology service for the whole south Birmingham region from inside the biggest teaching hospital in Europe.

Apparently I have no transferable skills to find a different job. And then I stood on a picket line in the cold to save our NHS. But my shift wasn't during the strike, it was just what countless other junior doctors do everyday.

I am 27 years old. I work 60 hours a week, for the 48 that I'm paid for, I earn £18/hour.

Apparently I lack vocation, I'm overpaid and I need to work harder.

Screw you Jeremy Hunt. We never asked for thanks. All we do is for our patients, how dare you try and turn them against us. All of this is your government's fault. Well you've picked a fight with the wrong crowd.

Go on, announce imposition, and just see what the most resilient, driven, passionate, intelligent group of people in Britain do next. Bring it on.

[DaveB]

Slight correction to my earlier post re pensions. I said a GP of roughly my age would obtain a pension about 9 times better than mine on retirement. It is actually more like 11 times when you take into account the doctor's earlier retirement age. He will be receiving his pension for 29 years, assuming we both live to 89, while mine will pay out for 24 years.

It is genuinely surprising that when looking at the pension provision for an average NHS doc, you have to use the word "million" quite a lot. The retiring GP will receive 115k immediately as a gift, plus 38k for the next 29 years, very roughly. 115+29*30 = 1.217 million pounds. Million. (The figure for me is 0+24*4.5 = 108k.)

In order to get on terms with the doc, I would have to build up a pension pot of over 2 million pounds. Millions. Plural. And that would come entirely out of my pre-tax income of course, not from the UK taxpayer. And it would be subject to stock market risk. The only answer would seem to be to marry a doctor.

So yes I am happy for the junior doctors to strike. Everyone should be allowed to strike and the occasional short strike shows we have a healthy society. But it's my money they are asking for, and the answer, this time, is No.

Do you have some actual references for this? How much are you paying into your pension? Thats what drives the final value. A fully qualified Doctor will be paying in 14.5% of their salary as pension contributions. The NHS pension scheme is

Again you are confusing hospital doctors with GP's.

You are also overlooking the fact that Doctors pensions are broadly in line with those of Civil Servants and Teachers, although they pay more in contributions than either of those.

A Senior Head Teacher or Senior Civil Servant with 35 years of contributions will get roughly the same as a Senior Doctor on retirement subject to minor differences in salary.

The NHS pension fund is an unfunded scheme. It does not accumulate a Pension Pot to pay out, current pensions are funded by contributions from those still working. Any surplus is paid back to the treasury (£2b in 2012). The government provides a guarantee of pension payments should there be a short fall, but the government actuary controls this by adjusting contribution levels accordingly.

Finally, this dispute is still not about the money, it's about having sufficient doctors available to cover the extra working hours that the government wants to impose. The BMA offered to take less money in the pay deal in order to fund increased cover for the 7 day working and the government rejected that.

[unixman]

Do you have some actual references for this?

Yes. As stated my earlier post links straight to the BMA's own worked example.

Again you are confusing hospital doctors with GP's.

Again, as stated, the example is for a GP of perhaps about my own age (48). This is what the BMA worked example is about.

A fully qualified Doctor will be paying in 14.5% of their salary as pension contributions

Excellent, glad to hear it. Have you got a link for reference, I couldn't find one, except an old Guardian story saying that this might happen in future. From the little research I have done, it seems "locum" GP's have a 14.3% "employers contribution" paid by their practice. I could be (and sure hope I am) wrong about that.

You are also overlooking the fact that Doctors pensions are broadly in line with those of Civil Servants and Teachers, although they pay more in contributions than either of those. A Senior Head Teacher or Senior Civil Servant with 35 years of contributions will get roughly the same as a Senior Doctor on retirement subject to minor differences in salary.

Yes, I am aware that the pensions for other senior public workers are extremely generous. The salary of a council chief dwarfs even that of most senior doctors, as well as the Prime Minister. Probably their pensions too but I haven't researched that.

The NHS pension fund is an unfunded scheme. It does not accumulate a Pension Pot to pay out, current pensions are funded by contributions from those still working. Any surplus is paid back to the treasury (£2b in 2012). The government provides a guarantee of pension payments should there be a short fall...

Who shoulders the risk, underwrites the payout and covers any shortfall ? You do, DaveB. I would hardly describe that as "unfunded".

Finally, this dispute is still not about the money, it's about having sufficient doctors available to cover the extra working hours that the government wants to impose. The BMA offered to take less money in the pay deal in order to fund increased cover for the 7 day working and the government rejected that.

I won't argue with you there.

You asked about my pension calculations. My forecast of 4.5k assumes that the stock market prospers reasonably (!) and I make no more payments in. If I pay in, say, £200 per month, it would increase my income after retirement from 4.5k to somewhere about 6k according to my pension provider's annual statement and their online calculator. However, my experience of the last 17 years shows that the performance has been anything but "prosperous". I need to marry that teacher/doctor/council chief, and quickly. Problem is, I look like my avatar.

[SueEllen]

@Unixman at one public sector client's I had, I discovered that the employer and employees pension contributions were between 13.8% to 22% each.

Do you put 13.8%, 15% or 20% into your pension from your salary? Does your company also put in 13.8%, 15% or 20%?

GP partners pay both the employer and employee contributions. Locums, salaried GPs and hospital doctors are considered employees so the employer makes their contribution while they contribute the rest.

In private sector companies the best I've seen is 8% with the employee having to put in at least 5%. So no way are private sector pensions going to match public sector pensions even if they used the same schemes.

[darmstadt]

Jeremey Hunt, turning into a real big...Jeremy Hunt talk goes ahead after doctors were told it was cancelled | UK Politics | News | The Independent

[NigelJK]

Unfortunately, the Independent then changed into being the most left wing and aggresively PC of all UK newspapers, as I saw it.

Blame Janet Street Porter for that.

Isn't this just the old fashioned Tory bashing left wing union football game, with the Docs as the unwitting football?

If the docs were paid as well as the private 'admin' consultants used by the NHS then we'd not have a problem.

I vote for Freelance Docs.