Immigration or humanitarian crisis?

[Gumbo Robot]

Really? Actually the first article is rather more convincing. It's easy to look around the world today and think how terrible things are but historically there have been as many awful things happening that did not cause these migration problems. The conflicts during the fall of the Ottoman empire for example. Some are paying a lot of money to the smugglers which the really poverty stricken could not afford.

Perhaps social media has something to do with it too.

But the countries that are overrepresented in these migration numbers all have one thing in common; they are wracked with conflict / internal strife of some description. Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria etc.

I mean, you don't see loads of people from Morocco making these journeys & I should imagine that's got a fairly similar standard of living as Syria before the conflict so if it's all driven by getting a better standard of living why aren't there thousands of Moroccans jumping the fence to get into Ceuta?

[Gumbo Robot]

Actually thought Fraser Nelson made some very good points. Its a shame some of the other Daily Telegraph journalists are fuelling the liberal hysteria.

Pier Morgan?

I don't like Morgan one little bit.

But I think he's right that we (Blair & Cameron) stirred up a hornet's nest and now we're reaping the whirlwind.

[vetran]

Perhaps social media has something to do with it too.

But the countries that are overrepresented in these migration numbers all have one thing in common; they are wracked with conflict / internal strife of some description. Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria etc.

I mean, you don't see loads of people from Morocco making these journeys & I should imagine that's got a fairly similar standard of living as Syria before the conflict so if it's all driven by getting a better standard of living why aren't there thousands of Moroccans jumping the fence to get into Ceuta?

it seems to be a two step process.

1. Oh sh*t the soldiers are coming, lets flee.
2. The next safe country has let us in but life is crap, why not go to Europe and claim asylum.

sort of understandable.

[EternalOptimist]

Definitely understandable.

If I were forced to do a runner, I would have a list of desirable destinations.

Then I would tell everyone (especially myself) that it's temporary, I will not sponge, I will work, I will pay taxes then, when the tension ends, I will go home.

[xoggoth]

But the countries that are overrepresented in these migration numbers all have one thing in common; they are wracked with conflict / internal strife of some description. Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria etc.

But equally many countries had similar problems throughout history and we did not get mass migrations of the same magnitude, not to Europe anyway. eg, last 50 years:
Nigerian Civil War 1970
Sudanese Civil War 1983
Soviet–Afghan War Afghanistan 1980
Rwanda 1994
Bangladesh Liberation War 1971

What has changed apart from prosperity that allows people to pay huge fees to smugglers and a more global world where travel is easier?

There are also a great many asylum seekers from Kosovo and Serbia.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...lum_statistics

Bosnia/Kosovo/Serbia etc understandably saw a lot of refugees in 1992 during conflicts there but why is there is a huge surge again long after the conflicts are over?

Officials struggle to explain the sudden increase, but point to a combination of factors: The draw of Germany’s relatively strong economy and generous welfare benefits, economic desperation in Kosovo, an easing of border crossing rules between Kosovo and longtime foe Serbia, and rumors on social media that it has gotten easier to get asylum.

Germany Grapples With Surge of Migrants From Kosovo - WSJ

Nothing to do with genuine fear of persecution but all to do with economic reasons. That last point illustrates why we should be wary of being too soft.

[Gumbo Robot]

But equally many countries had similar problems throughout history and we did not get mass migrations of the same magnitude, not to Europe anyway. eg, last 50 years:
Nigerian Civil War 1970
Sudanese Civil War 1983
Soviet–Afghan War Afghanistan 1980
Rwanda 1994
Bangladesh Liberation War 1971

What has changed apart from prosperity that allows people to pay huge fees to smugglers and a more global world where travel is easier?

There are also a great many asylum seekers from Kosovo and Serbia.

Asylum statistics - Statistics Explained

Bosnia/Kosovo/Serbia etc understandably saw a lot of refugees in 1992 during conflicts there but why is there is a huge surge again long after the conflicts are over?


Germany Grapples With Surge of Migrants From Kosovo - WSJ

Nothing to do with genuine fear of persecution but all to do with economic reasons. That last point illustrates why we should be wary of being too soft.

I'll read the article again. What I took from it was that he was disregarding the role of conflict.

[original PM]

So on the news last night was the sister of the wife who along with her young sons (that image of the dead child being taken from the water) and she was saying that her sister did not want to go because she was afraid of the water as she could not swim.

Which seems to imply that she thought the greater threat was drowning and not what ever they were fleeing from.

Which is why as other people said there is a lot of concern and suspicion.

Add in what is going on in Bulgaria where they are trying to register the asylum seekers/immigrants and they are refusing - starting to get a little antsy maybe violence on the way - because they want to go to Germany.

If you were fleeing from something with your children and nothing but the clothes on your back you would stop at the first place which offered safe haven.

The fact they are not casts doubts about the real motive.

[The Spartan]

So on the news last night was the sister of the wife who along with her young sons (that image of the dead child being taken from the water) and she was saying that her sister did not want to go because she was afraid of the water as she could not swim.

Which seems to imply that she thought the greater threat was drowning and not what ever they were fleeing from.

Which is why as other people said there is a lot of concern and suspicion.

Add in what is going on in Bulgaria where they are trying to register the asylum seekers/immigrants and they are refusing - starting to get a little antsy maybe violence on the way - because they want to go to Germany.

If you were fleeing from something with your children and nothing but the clothes on your back you would stop at the first place which offered safe haven.

The fact they are not casts doubts about the real motive.

Spot on there, you'd think they would be more compliant after the horrors they're meant to be escaping. I wonder if there will be a registration process here that way when all is safe they can go home without a fuss but somehow I doubt it.

[meridian]

Spot on there, you'd think they would be more compliant after the horrors they're meant to be escaping. I wonder if there will be a registration process here that way when all is safe they can go home without a fuss but somehow I doubt it.

On Border Watch on Sky the other day there was a Chinese woman who had borrowed money in China to pay people smugglers to get her illegally into the UK. Three years later, when immigration caught up with her, she then decided to claim asylum due to being unable to repay the debt in China. This was refused, but she then "failed to turn up for deportation and her whereabouts are currently unknown".

Even if there is a registration process, our immigration department is a joke.

[The Spartan]

On Border Watch on Sky the other day there was a Chinese woman who had borrowed money in China to pay people smugglers to get her illegally into the UK. Three years later, when immigration caught up with her, she then decided to claim asylum due to being unable to repay the debt in China. This was refused, but she then "failed to turn up for deportation and her whereabouts are currently unknown".

Even if there is a registration process, our immigration department is a joke.

Bonkers isn't it, claim asylum pad it out if you lose by appealing and eventually do a bunk if it doesn't work out in your favour.