So...anybody ask for any of this?

[jamesbrown]

Mal, you've said that "do nothing" is not an option. Why is it not an option? As the old saying goes, better the devil you know...

Worth a try, but Mal appears to studiously avoid answering any questions of substance...

[TykeMerc]

Worth a try, but Mal appears to studiously avoid answering any questions of substance...

He and the other IPSE CUK posting accounts want any debate to be held on the IPSE forums which we're told receive no traffic to speak of so in effect it stifles any conversation. The IPSE management can then claim one or two dissenters in 20k so they have full support of the membership.

Once the deal and the damage is done there will be no going back, just like the Opt out, but this will be far worse as it will signal the end of the opposition to IR35 by total capitulation.

[DiscoStu]

Well, with that level of debate I cant imagine why IPSE wouldn't have the debate right here [/SARCASM]

Far milder than many Gilmour / tarbera posts on the IPSE forum...

[malvolio]

Mal, you've said that "do nothing" is not an option. Why is it not an option? As the old saying goes, better the devil you know...

In your case (and even mine) that's possibly true. However there an awful lot on people out there in the real world that are exposed by a lack of knowledge of the factors that can bite them at any time, that represent a sizeable chunk of the working population and that have no effective voice. IPSE's 20k member are probably the bulk of those that actually understand and can deal with IR35, for example, out of a few million independent workers.

Secondly IPSE can't maintain a dialogue with HMG on any subject if they don't contribute anything: doing nothing merely means that we all lose the very real representative authority they have now. Do you really want your work environment defined by some inexperienced jobsworth Civil Servant at the Treasury or BIS???

[malvolio]

He and the other IPSE CUK posting accounts want any debate to be held on the IPSE forums which we're told receive no traffic to speak of so in effect it stifles any conversation. The IPSE management can then claim one or two dissenters in 20k so they have full support of the membership.

Once the deal and the damage is done there will be no going back, just like the Opt out, but this will be far worse as it will signal the end of the opposition to IR35 by total capitulation.

Seems to be plenty of traffic over there. And the number of people reading the IPSE boards has stayed pretty much constant.

But I love this idea that IPSE's objective is to stop fighting IR35. That's pure - and ill-informed - fantasy.

[tractor]

...

Seems to be plenty of traffic over there. And the number of people reading the IPSE boards has stayed pretty much constant.

But I love this idea that IPSE's objective is to stop fighting IR35. That's pure - and ill-informed - fantasy.

And whose fault is that?

[tractor]

...

In your case (and even mine) that's possibly true. However there an awful lot on people out there in the real world that are exposed by a lack of knowledge of the factors that can bite them at any time, that represent a sizeable chunk of the working population and that have no effective voice. IPSE's 20k member are probably the bulk of those that actually understand and can deal with IR35, for example, out of a few million independent workers.

Secondly IPSE can't maintain a dialogue with HMG on any subject if they don't contribute anything: doing nothing merely means that we all lose the very real representative authority they have now. Do you really want your work environment defined by some inexperienced jobsworth Civil Servant at the Treasury or BIS???

I think that is unlikely. Only today/yesterday someone was misquoting the AWR in an IR35 context. Just as it often happens here.

Of course no one is saying we don't want representation. Those that are interested simply want to understand what is being horse-traded and to make up their own minds on how it will affect them, their company and their business model. It is not too much to ask.

[mudskipper]

In your case (and even mine) that's possibly true. However there an awful lot on people out there in the real world that are exposed by a lack of knowledge of the factors that can bite them at any time, that represent a sizeable chunk of the working population and that have no effective voice. IPSE's 20k member are probably the bulk of those that actually understand and can deal with IR35, for example, out of a few million independent workers.

Secondly IPSE can't maintain a dialogue with HMG on any subject if they don't contribute anything: doing nothing merely means that we all lose the very real representative authority they have now. Do you really want your work environment defined by some inexperienced jobsworth Civil Servant at the Treasury or BIS???

Thank you - I appreciate your courteous reply.

Please understand - we're not being difficult for the sake of an argument (mostly!) - there are real concerns here.

Taking your first point, if IPSE's members are not the ones who will benefit from this (assuming it comes to pass), why are IPSE's members paying for the research etc. that we are assured has gone into this? It seems at odds with the reassurances that the name change doesn't signify a big change in IPSEs raison d'être.

[eek]

Thank you - I appreciate your courteous reply.

Please understand - we're not being difficult for the sake of an argument (mostly!) - there are real concerns here.

Taking your first point, if IPSE's members are not the ones who will benefit from this (assuming it comes to pass), why are IPSE's members paying for the research etc. that we are assured has gone into this? It seems at odds with the reassurances that the name change doesn't signify a big change in IPSEs raison d'être.

+1. I don't want an argument here but I have the slight disadvantage of seeing HMRC's plans from a different angle (the local development teams)... Hence I have a serious dislike of the proposals simply because I see the next steps are already in motion....

[tractor]

...

+1. I don't want an argument here but I have the slight disadvantage of seeing HMRC's plans from a different angle (the local development teams)... Hence I have a serious dislike of the proposals simply because I see the next steps are already in motion....

Like I keep saying, however clever we think we are, they are and always have been way ahead of us.