Victim blaming, or sensible advice

[mudskipper]

vetran, you seem to think that the number of cases where a drunk woman consents, then reports rape is significant. I've no doubt it happens, but surely it's very much the exception, not the norm.
I think this scenario clouds the discussion.

[vetran]

What you don't seem to understand clearly both are rape.

There is no lesser or greater crime. It also doesn't matter on the victim's age or gender , or whether the perpetrator knows the victim or not.

and that is why many people get away with rape in the grey cases.

they are patently obviously different. Premeditation & motive make them different.

Just as you hitting your husband in anger , he falling over and cracking his head is different from cutting his brake lines so you can run off with your toyboy.

They may well have a similar effect on the victim.

[CloudWalker]

This happened last weekend in Basildon.
Now even if she had a few drinks and had decided to walk home alone under a dark under pass (poor judgement maybe) she is not to blame.
Rapists should be castrated ,
Nathan Morgan, known as 'Spartan' wanted over rape of woman in Basildon | Brentwood Gazette

[SueEllen]

and that is why many people get away with rape in the grey cases.

they are patently obviously different. Premeditation & motive make them different.

No in our criminal courts you can only convict where there is no reasonable doubt.

In grey cases there is reasonable doubt as:
1. The defence barrister tries to paint the victim as having a personality disorder and a liar plus uses the other prejudices in society about rape incidents i.e. victim didn't scream or fight back, the people knew each other
2. There is often limited evidence

[SueEllen]

This happened last weekend in Basildon.
Now even if she had a few drinks and had decided to walk home alone under a dark under pass (poor judgement maybe) she is not to blame.

There maybe no other route she could walk home.

Lots of 60's towns and estates were built with scant regard to safety. The planners ignored the fact that certain designs made it easier to commit crimes.

[vetran]

vetran, you seem to think that the number of cases where a drunk woman consents, then reports rape is significant. I've no doubt it happens, but surely it's very much the exception, not the norm.
I think this scenario clouds the discussion.

indeed it does cloud the discussion so much so this report clearly identifies as an issue.

The number of cases where alcohol and drugs play a significant role in the circumstances of the offence also undermines the clarity of evidence regarding ‘consent’.
The number of cases where victims have multiple vulnerabilities in their lives is 87%, making them and their evidence less robust when scrutinised in light of court processes.

MPA: Committees: Strategic and Operational Policing Committee agendas - 10-Nov-11 (10)

now the presumption is that if the victim is drunk they didn't consent.
Which is probably good but not if you are accused of one of the 'rare' cases.

how do we make their evidence more believable? Well we make sure they have less vulnerabilities.

[vetran]

This happened last weekend in Basildon.
Now even if she had a few drinks and had decided to walk home alone under a dark under pass (poor judgement maybe) she is not to blame.
Rapists should be castrated ,
Nathan Morgan, known as 'Spartan' wanted over rape of woman in Basildon | Brentwood Gazette

She was however foolish and if she had avoided walking home drunk in a dodgy part of town then it is less likely the offence would have happened. Education is key here. Maybe the word 'blame' is the problem?

Would I be considered to 'blame' if I wore a Celtic top at the wrong end of the stand then got thumped? I bet some of you would say yes.

[vetran]

There maybe no other route she could walk home.

Lots of 60's towns and estates were built with scant regard to safety. The planners ignored the fact that certain designs made it easier to commit crimes.

good so we improve safety in town to help prevent the 8% of stranger 1 rapes.

[vetran]

No in our criminal courts you can only convict where there is no reasonable doubt.

In grey cases there is reasonable doubt as:
1. The defence barrister tries to paint the victim as having a personality disorder and a liar plus uses the other prejudices in society about rape incidents i.e. victim didn't scream or fight back, the people knew each other
2. There is often limited evidence

so change the rules & the offence so that we have more chance of a safe conviction.

[original PM]

This happened last weekend in Basildon.
Now even if she had a few drinks and had decided to walk home alone under a dark under pass (poor judgement maybe) she is not to blame.
Rapists should be castrated ,
Nathan Morgan, known as 'Spartan' wanted over rape of woman in Basildon | Brentwood Gazette

Well ok this is a pretty clear cut case of rape where alcohol was involved.

However this is a different scenario (not crime note) than when a couple end up in a flat/hotel room a bit tipsy and sex happens - in this case both parties went willing to a location where some form of physical sexual activity was a probability (lets be honest adults if we go back to a private place willing with a person of the gender we prefer there is on option at that point for things to take a sexual turn) however this does not mean that one person has the right to force the other to do something they do not want.....


The biggest problem is when that scenario happens, sex happens and then in the morning one of the parties starts to play a different tune to the night before.... and that is why we have grey areas.