Reply to: Victim blaming, or sensible advice

[EternalOptimist]

I can imagine the AndyW option might seem to be in poor taste!

heh heh

[mudskipper]

I guess we are getting close the point where we are asking for a poll
anonymous of course

1)have you ever been assaulted sexually
2)raped
3)convicted of rape
4)falsely accused of rape

I can imagine the AndyW option might seem to be in poor taste!

[EternalOptimist]

What I don't understand is why people (and not just men) are so keen to disbelieve women who report rape. If someone reports an assault, "Do I believe you?" isn't usually the starting position.

I guess we are getting close the point where we are asking for a poll
anonymous of course

1)have you ever been assaulted sexually
2)raped
3)convicted of rape
4)falsely accused of rape

[SueEllen]

What I don't understand is why people (and not just men) are so keen to disbelieve women who report rape. If someone reports an assault, "Do I believe you?" isn't usually the starting position.

One of the issues is guys who rape are normal men.

The media makes out in it's reports that the man involved is some kind of weirdo/monster so this means that when people are confronted with a victim of rape they don't believe them.

The paedophile cases going on at the moment are another example of this. The children who were abused weren't believed because the (mainly) men involved were normal.

[MyUserName]

Agree - but plenty of crimes are one person's word against another. That's why you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Many rape cases are dropped because of this - 'false accusation' stats seem to include 'insufficient evidence to prosecute' - some surely are false accusations, probably many aren't.

I find it unlikely that most of them are false accusations. A person would need some serious malice to make up something like that and push it as far as court.

Any discussion of rape inevitably ends up with someone bringing up women who make it up. That doesn't happen for other crimes.

True, although I am not sure there are many serious crimes which hinge so completely on one person's word against another's?

Not playing down the impact of women who do falsely accuse someone - it must be devastating - but I'd hope it's very much the exception, not the norm.

This sort of thing happened to a friend. He had sex with a girl at a party in the next room to where everyone was partying. She claimed he raped her he claimed consent. It went to court and witnesses said that they had seen them come out of the room laughing and joking and the victim had rejoined the party and seemed to enjoy herself until her boyfriend picked her up later. Other inconsistencies were brought out in her statement and he was found not guilty (or the case was thrown out, I cannot remember exactly). He was fired for bringing the company into disrepute and had to move home (from North England to South Wales) to avoid being hassled.

[mudskipper]

I am not an expert in the field but I would assume that the belief and lack of belief of a victim is important when two people are making opposite claims about consent and there are no witnesses or other types of evidence. So it would not be a question of belief in the victim's word but proof beyond reasonable doubt based purely on someone's word?

In situations where there is an assault kind of rape (my then gf, now wife,was at the receiving end of one of these but luckily she kicked the guys head in. He managed to out run her but when she was being interviewed by the police whether she was telling the truth or not was never an issue, nor was what she was wearing, why she was along at night etc.

Agree - but plenty of crimes are one person's word against another. That's why you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Many rape cases are dropped because of this - 'false accusation' stats seem to include 'insufficient evidence to prosecute' - some surely are false accusations, probably many aren't.

Any discussion of rape inevitably ends up with someone bringing up women who make it up. That doesn't happen for other crimes.

Not playing down the impact of women who do falsely accuse someone - it must be devastating - but I'd hope it's very much the exception, not the norm.

[MyUserName]

What I don't understand is why people (and not just men) are so keen to disbelieve women who report rape. If someone reports an assault, "Do I believe you?" isn't usually the starting position.

I am not an expert in the field but I would assume that the belief and lack of belief of a victim is important when two people are making opposite claims about consent and there are no witnesses or other types of evidence. So it would not be a question of belief in the victim's word but proof beyond reasonable doubt based purely on someone's word?

In situations where there is an assault kind of rape (my then gf, now wife,was at the receiving end of one of these but luckily she kicked the guys head in. He managed to out run her but when she was being interviewed by the police whether she was telling the truth or not was never an issue, nor was what she was wearing, why she was along at night etc.

[mudskipper]

What I don't understand is why people (and not just men) are so keen to disbelieve women who report rape. If someone reports an assault, "Do I believe you?" isn't usually the starting position.

[mudskipper]

And, for balance, the opposite argument

Facts and Statistics about False Rape Claims - A Primer. : MensRights

[mudskipper]

Here's some reading about false reporting

One Reason Why False Rape Allegation Statistics Are So High | Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

And from closer to home:

Rape Crisis Scotland | Campaigns & Fundraising

[MyUserName]

"Men being falsely accused of rape is a problem" (and I know you didn't say men, you said 'one of the parties')

This not a common occurrence AT ALL. It is a minor footnote in any discussion about rape.

Of course, it has happened, and it could absolutely ruin a mans life, but it so uncommon that is largely irrelevant in any discussion about rape.

How do you know?

Surely it is possible that a large majority of men who are accused but not convicted of rape were falsely accused?

[jmo21]

The biggest problem is when that scenario happens, sex happens and then in the morning one of the parties starts to play a different tune to the night before.... and that is why we have grey areas.

Surprised no one picked up on this.

Rape discussions inevitably end up with someone saying this.

"Men being falsely accused of rape is a problem" (and I know you didn't say men, you said 'one of the parties')

This not a common occurrence AT ALL. It is a minor footnote in any discussion about rape.

Of course, it has happened, and it could absolutely ruin a mans life, but it so uncommon that is largely irrelevant in any discussion about rape.

[NotAllThere]

But do you think walking through a dodgy area waving your wad and getting mugged is equivalent in terms of "asking for it" as a woman who has a drink and gets raped? (...or wears a short skirt and gets raped, or walks home alone and gets raped, or.... you get the gist...)

The point was that unix's sheeplike mantra is a replacement for reasoned discussion.

But in answer to your question not at all. And anyway, whether I think she's asking for it is kind of irrelevant. Unfortunately, there are a small minority of men who do think she'll be asking for it, and answer that question. I think that "women should be able to wear what they want" and "don't put yourself in a vulnerable position" are not mutually exclusive.

[SueEllen]

Indeed I think birds believe in this 'new man' stuff, should we tell them?

Some men always had manners and were more empathetic compared to their male peers.

[SueEllen]

not at all.
risk is the chance of something happening multiplied by the impact

the impact of losing your wodge is a lot less than being physically assaulted (esp sexually)

so its daft to wave your ass or your assets, but one carries a much greater risk

Have you been walking around with your eyes closed for the last month?

Due to the weather the majority of women under 50 are wearing above knee length skirts or shorts in the day AND night. This discussion implies if one of us dares drink alcohol in the evening/night then we are asking for it.

I'm also ignoring those of us who do exercise in short and/or tight shorts and then go for drinks afterwards including non-alcoholic ones without changing before going home in the evening/night.

If you talk to women who are from or lived in certain Arab countries they will tell you they get abuse regardless of how long and non-figure hugging the clothes are they are wearing. If you also meet women who say they were sexually assaulted or raped in the UK a lot will tell you they weren't wearing the stereotype.

You can hide the fact you have lots of cash from people but most women can't easily hide the fact they are female.