Client enforcing time away without notice period

[malvolio]

OK. Back on topic.

Please explain why you dont agree with my feelings that making contractors take a long xmas holiday is not going to upset them. would you be a little upset?

It's a 50:50 answer.

Bad - They lose quite a lot of money (although they usually forget that their day rate is supposed to cover days off...)

Good - It demonstrates the necessary Irreducible Minimum of Mutuality Of Obligation (to give MOO it's full name) needed to put your contract outside IR35 (but only the smart guys will know that).

Given the IR35 cost of a three month contract will be considerably more than 5 days gross, I have little sympathy with those who get upset about it.

[northernladuk]

OK. Back on topic.

Please explain why you dont agree with my feelings that making contractors take a long xmas holiday is not going to upset them. would you be a little upset?

Ok, lets go through it in detail as you arguing about something I said which I didn't.

You said..

Cant see too many clients telling you mid-contract, take a month off then come back for next project. Surely this would be a sure fire way to piss your contractors off and risk them telling you to stuff it and go off and do something else. After all, it works both ways.

Thats right. It is very bad business.

And I agreed.

You said

Then again, I used to work as permie in a place that made the contractors all take 3-4 weeks off for Xmas every year. Some reason about cost cutting and less work gets done in decemember etc. Personally, I though it was all a bit silly and just managed to piss them off to save a few quid. There were times when something important had to be done by one of the contractors in december but company policy dictated they couldnt work.

That is probably because you don't have a clue.

Oddly enough it goes back to the comment about how you say it. For you to say you think it is silly makes you look ridiculous and that have no idea. I don't disagree with what you are saying but for you to say it is silly is what irked me. There is a justification around everything that has to be agreed by a number of people. If you have 50 contractors at £600 a day and make them take 15 days unpaid = £450,000 saving in a month that for many companys is their financial year end. It could be the difference between them making their numbers for the shareholders and not and so on and so on.
It is not silly. You make yourself sound stupid saying things like that. That is what bothered me.

I never said it wouldn't upset them. For the record I would be livid and am sure the OP is as well. I just let my dim opinion of your responses cloud my judgement when replying. My apologies and I won't do it again.

[d000hg]

This is very true and am often very guilty of this but it is a two way street, if you don't want a rude remark don't make yourself look like a pillock when you post. If it walks like a duck.. etc... Some posters have to think a bit before they post. This is a professional forum, not mumsnet.

That's a load. You make it sound like "I won't be rude if you ask sensible questions" is a magnanimous act. Being polite means being helpful especially when it's not strictly merited. Newbies don't know their questions are basic, and whatever you might think, people (in general) NEVER read stuff on a forum first... every site I'm on has sticky "read this first" threads and it simply doesn't work.

You'd be better resigning yourself to the fact people are going to keep asking the basic questions, and either copy-paste a link or just don't reply, if it irks you so much.

[SussexSeagull]

Might I pose a hypothetical (for me at least, I am sure it has happened to someone)?

If a month into a three month contract you are told to take a month off due to lack of work then come back, is there a legal mechanism for getting out of the contract if you haven't got a notice period?

[poly1906]

Like the OP I have been informed of a mandatory time off period being imposed on contractors by client co.

As posters have stated, I see myself as a big boy, happy to have the time off and in fact quite pleased at the demonstration of a lack of MOO.

However... the agency has informed me of this verbally and for some reason seems reluctant to put it in writing. Apparantly the client co have asked them not to. I would like it in writing so there is a record of it having happened i.e. proof of lack of MOO if there was ever an IR35 enquiry (no reason to suspect there would be but I see it as a potential get out of jail free card). I checked my contract, which has the relevant clause ralating to there being no obligation of work, but that direct clause does not say how such instances should be communicated. There are other clauses that make general statements about changes to terms being put in writing. Arguably this is not a change of terms, just an instance of no work being available which is covered in the contract.

So just wondered how the OP and others were told about this (phone, face-to-face, email, carrier pigeon, etc.) and whether it was subsequently put in writing (or if you requested that). On the other hand would the "Mandatory" aspect indicate a form of control and actually be bad from an IR35 perspective - in which case I should just not turn up on the relevant days, not bill, drink special brew on a park bench in between playing violent computer games and come back in January as if nothing happened.

[TheFaQQer]

Might I pose a hypothetical (for me at least, I am sure it has happened to someone)?

If a month into a three month contract you are told to take a month off due to lack of work then come back, is there a legal mechanism for getting out of the contract if you haven't got a notice period?

Punch the manager in the face and have them terminate your contract for unprofessional conduct?

[Belle]

Thank you northernladuk for pointing out that I asked this question before – yes I had forgotten my post in the hectic, ensuing 11 months but you seem to have a lot of time on your hands (and obviously felt you needed to search for my previous posts), so it was good of you to remind me
My contract is with a consulting company who placed me at the client.
The contract with the consulting company has a specific start and end date
I have a termination clause which states 30 days notice by both parties
I have no MOO clause – I have a substitution clause (how harsh are you going to be on me for that?!)
In my ignorance I thought MOO related to ongoing contracts (i.e. the client is not obligated to provide you with continuing work nor obligated to keep renewing contracts), however I did not fully realise MOO relates to work within the term of a contract
The client has issued the MTA – the consulting company has not bothered to let me know
Yes, it is only 5 days, but the contract was in the process of being renewed until the project was suddenly put on hold and so I wasn’t expecting to be out of work, on such short notice. And now I am at Christmas time (sob!)

you should take it like a man. Smile sweetly, thank everyone you've worked with, buy a round of beers in the pub

I am a woman but always happy to buy the beers.

[northernladuk]

Thank you northernladuk for pointing out that I asked this question before – yes I had forgotten my post in the hectic, ensuing 11 months but you seem to have a lot of time on your hands (and obviously felt you needed to search for my previous posts), so it was good of you to remind me
My contract is with a consulting company who placed me at the client.
The contract with the consulting company has a specific start and end date
I have a termination clause which states 30 days notice by both parties
I have no MOO clause – I have a substitution clause (how harsh are you going to be on me for that?!)
In my ignorance I thought MOO related to ongoing contracts (i.e. the client is not obligated to provide you with continuing work nor obligated to keep renewing contracts), however I did not fully realise MOO relates to work within the term of a contract
The client has issued the MTA – the consulting company has not bothered to let me know
Yes, it is only 5 days, but the contract was in the process of being renewed until the project was suddenly put on hold and so I wasn’t expecting to be out of work, on such short notice. And now I am at Christmas time (sob!)

Did you have the contract reviewed by QDOS or similar? If not then I would say maybe you should as you need to decide where you stand with IR35 and how it affects your finances now

I am a woman but always happy to buy the beers.

I pointed that out so at least I got something right in this thread but certainly don't expect a line of people congratulating me for that.

A big hug from D000hg would be nice though

[SussexSeagull]

Punch the manager in the face and have them terminate your contract for unprofessional conduct?

What about getting the agent to do it to avoid any IR35 implications?

[northernladuk]

What about getting the agent to do it to avoid any IR35 implications?

She signed it and almost completely worked it. No agent is going to change it retrospectively now. This is a must at the beginning of the next one though. The contract isn't the only flag, it is also the working conditions so she could be ok if the changes QDOS suggest are also evident in the workplace. The client has demonstrated there is no MOO by giving this notice so she isn't sunk if the contract says otherwise but deffo needs checking over.