What happens if...

[pmeswani]

Thirdly if a contractor is in work he will often not wish to compromise his/her position by allowing his/her boss to be approached over a reference. Therefore references only need to be given if the contractor receives an offer.

Absolutely agree with this. Why should I give an agent the opportunity to abuse my good faith in giving away free information without knowing if the job that they are applying for actually exists.

If the contractor is not working then yes references may be checked prior to interview. Any agent who claims that they need a reference prior to putting the CV forward or as a condition to putting the CV forward is a liar and 99.9% not likely to have a job in the first place.

I still wouldn't give out references until after I have attended an interview, unless I have an existing good relationship with the agent / agency, I would wait until after the interview until I give out references. I don't want to give the agent / agency the incentive of lying to me in order to get more leads only to cancel the interview.

[cojak]

Sorry - I'm with Dodgy on this too..

I'm sure that the OP is a fine upstanding example of RC's but if I followed his advice I'd be rolled over by the next 'A9' pimp who called me.

You have to kiss a lot of frogs out there....

[DodgyAgent]

I still wouldn't give out references until after I have attended an interview, unless I have an existing good relationship with the agent / agency, I would wait until after the interview until I give out references. I don't want to give the agent / agency the incentive of lying to me in order to get more leads only to cancel the interview.

Which is entirely reasonable.

[The Agents View]

Absolutely agree with this. Why should I give an agent the opportunity to abuse my good faith in giving away free information without knowing if the job that they are applying for actually exists.



I still wouldn't give out references until after I have attended an interview, unless I have an existing good relationship with the agent / agency, I would wait until after the interview until I give out references. I don't want to give the agent / agency the incentive of lying to me in order to get more leads only to cancel the interview.

Then you won't be getting a role through me at any point soon.

Perhaps before discounting the reference issue, you should try thinking around it - If you don't trust the agent, offer to set up a conference call with one of your referee's - tell them you want to listen in, and want a copy of the reference afterwards. Then assuming that the agent is doing all he or she says they are, then, and only then release the other one.

You have all clearly been burned by agents - some of whom clearly lurk here - either that or you all work at the low end of the market, where sharks are more prevalent - This is all music to my ears, in fact it's my favourite objection....but it shouldn't be like this.

Dodgy:
As for abusing me for spending 40 mins on the phone to my client - give me the information up front, and I'll find you the right person first time - don't afford me the time and I end up shooting in the dark like every other cowboy out there, hoping to make a placement. People have described our process as being like going 10 rounds with Mike Tyson, but with a reward at the end of it, which allows them to get on with the rest of thier day, knowing that I'll deliver.

The above also allows me to be able to give an in-depth explanation as to what is required to the contractor - not just skills, but culture, an idea of when interviews will be, when decisions will be, and so on and so forth....what have you got? A piece of paper from a HR doris who doesn't have a clue how to qualify precise needs, and will present a different picture to the one your end client is looking for.

If you're not building a clear picture of what you are looking for you are destined to remain HR's monkey, which they'll lead around in circles - no control over your business, no growth prospects, and more than a high chance of failure to deliver accurately. Feel free to explain how you can justify a 20% margin by firing a few CV's which MIGHT be right, in, when compared to the same margin for:

Understanding the role
Qualifying the candidate
Referencing X2
Providing in depth recommendations as to why the person is right.
As well as presenting a professional image of the client because you understand EXACTLY what the client wants to see.

Good luck in the downturn........

[Mart001]

The problem is how many jobs do you apply for in one sitting, to keep a check of all the job numbers (they change between agents for the same roles) and companys (if listed or agent willing to give) and specs that seem familiar (sounds like the same spec but slightly different... hmmm there were quite a few positions opened what now) is just crazy. One client can advertise for at least 5 similar positions at a time, I will apply for all of them and more. Then search the next day and apply for other positions. Keeping a track is extremely difficult and to be honest I have not got the time.

and If every agent wanted to check my references before putting me forward my references would get piss*d off.

[expat]

1. The agent has another contractor available that he can convince to take a lower rate.

What would be the point? rates vary according to experience alot of the time, so you put a substandard contractor in and it falls out two weeks later - bad business.
...etc
Catch these people out - please! The fewer sharks there are in this market place, the more effective I can be, because I won't have to deal with as much animosity towards trying to earn a living!

Thanks for the detailed reply. Not 100% convinced but it is food for thought.

[DodgyAgent]

Then you won't be getting a role through me at any point soon.

Perhaps before discounting the reference issue, you should try thinking around it - If you don't trust the agent, offer to set up a conference call with one of your referee's - tell them you want to listen in, and want a copy of the reference afterwards. Then assuming that the agent is doing all he or she says they are, then, and only then release the other one.

You have all clearly been burned by agents - some of whom clearly lurk here - either that or you all work at the low end of the market, where sharks are more prevalent - This is all music to my ears, in fact it's my favourite objection....but it shouldn't be like this.

Dodgy:
As for abusing me for spending 40 mins on the phone to my client - give me the information up front, and I'll find you the right person first time - don't afford me the time and I end up shooting in the dark like every other cowboy out there, hoping to make a placement. People have described our process as being like going 10 rounds with Mike Tyson, but with a reward at the end of it, which allows them to get on with the rest of thier day, knowing that I'll deliver.

The above also allows me to be able to give an in-depth explanation as to what is required to the contractor - not just skills, but culture, an idea of when interviews will be, when decisions will be, and so on and so forth....what have you got? A piece of paper from a HR doris who doesn't have a clue how to qualify precise needs, and will present a different picture to the one your end client is looking for.

If you're not building a clear picture of what you are looking for you are destined to remain HR's monkey, which they'll lead around in circles - no control over your business, no growth prospects, and more than a high chance of failure to deliver accurately. Feel free to explain how you can justify a 20% margin by firing a few CV's which MIGHT be right, in, when compared to the same margin for:

Understanding the role
Qualifying the candidate
Referencing X2
Providing in depth recommendations as to why the person is right.
As well as presenting a professional image of the client because you understand EXACTLY what the client wants to see.

Good luck in the downturn........

I will set aside the bullsh*t that implies that all your clients use you exclusively for whatever jobs they have; that you are the "gatekeeper" of their requirements and that you decide who goes forward and who does not.

If you are so able to supply the client with any skill that he/she might want how on earth can you possibly have networked and got to know the vast amount of contractors who would be:

1. Technically/business skilled
2. Available at the right time
3. Live in close enough proximity

That would be necessary to cover the vast spectrum of skills that a cross section of clients would want at any one time unless you are operating in a highly niche market?

You have not told us either what you ask of references? If a contractor has worked on one site for the past 4 years how do you obtain a reference (let alone know who is) if the guy is still working and you calling his boss may compromise his position?

[The Agents View]

I will set aside the bullsh*t that implies that all your clients use you exclusively for whatever jobs they have; that you are the "gatekeeper" of their requirements and that you decide who goes forward and who does not.

Which is why my candidates stand out - not only do I have a good understanding of what the contractor claims he does - I also know how he does it, why he does it like that, what success he's seen, what he's learned and backed that up - I often have competition - but I get it right first time, so my clients don't end up sifting 30 CV's to get the match - I've done that already - which is why I can charge a 20% margin, and you get done for 10-15% - I've put the leg work in.[/I]

If you are so able to supply the client with any skill that he/she might want how on earth can you possibly have networked and got to know the vast amount of contractors who would be:

1. Technically/business skilled
2. Available at the right time
3. Live in close enough proximity

I am in a niche market - and no - I can't provide everything - hence I specialise

That would be necessary to cover the vast spectrum of skills that a cross section of clients would want at any one time unless you are operating in a highly niche market? Spot on - but thats not the reason - I cover projects and associated disciplines

You have not told us either what you ask of references?
briefly (I have work to do) I ask what the contractor was engaged for - what they did - what they delivered - what that meant - how they went about it - Soft skills - Method - challenges - how they overcame them, and a range of other questions.

If a contractor has worked on one site for the past 4 years how do you obtain a reference You have to apply a level of pragmatism - sometimes it's not possible to get a reference - but there are always other ways - managers who have left, peers who have left, verbal off the record reviews - anything to make sure that I'm not going to get stiffed 3 weeks later.

(let alone know who is) if the guy is still working and you calling his boss may compromise his position? I'd never compromise the position of anyone - that's inappropriate and unprofessional - as I say there are ways around it - alternatively you meet the person, look them straight in the eye and use a degree of gut feeling before considering putting them forwards. Bear in mind, I aim for 2 placements a month, so logistics are far easier at this volume, than at the "bums on seats" level.

P.S. the use of the word "he" is not meant to be sexist, it's simply the way it was written previously, so i've kept it uniform (and I'm too lazy to write he/she each time!).

[NotAllThere]

Anyone got any popcorn?

[smiff]

Anyone got any popcorn?

They're getting there, nearly enough numbers for an "Agents UK" forum.