What happens if...

[b0redom]

Any consultant worth his salt, will build relations with you, check you out, reference you, and understand you in enough detail to present reasoned argument as to why you should be taken on for the role - they will also TELL YOU who the role is with - they don't want your name tarnished with that of a competitor. It also makes you look desperate if you are submitted twice. References ARE NOT a "fishing tool" when there's a genuine role

Stop! Stop!

My sides are hurting.....

I'm not sure what industry you work in, but the vast majority of agents I've dealt with have no clue at all. I've lost count of the conversations I've had where the consultant just reads a job spec at you with absolutely no understanding of it along with asking questions such as:

"I see you have Linux, Solaris, and AIX, but do you have any UNIX?"

[expat]

The only reason an agent will not put anyone forward is they proberly think the contractor would not be a good fit for the job.And sometimes as the contractor most of the time tells the agent "I can do that" the crap agents don't have the bottle to say sorry mate/love you are not the level the client are expecting .

Oh come on, several reasons spring immediately to mind:

1. The agent has another contractor available that he can convince to take a lower rate.
2. The agent has a lower-paying contract that he thinks you will take, while he puts someone else into Contract A, so getting 2 guys in.
3. The agent has 3 guys put forward, and isn't allowed any more, so he keeps you out of that market by telling you that you are in for it (and you absolutely must not go via any other agent).
4. The agent has a nice one coming up in a few weeks and wants you still to be available for it.
etc etc.

Some of these contain at least an element that an agent may well see as being a legitimate part of his work: allocation of his resources to maximise income or profit. The problem comes when the agent's profit is not what the contractor wants to maximise, and the agent tells lies in order to get his way.

[kanulondon]

"I see you have Linux, Solaris, and AIX, but do you have any UNIX?"

I got one the other day

"I see you have ITIL Manager's Certificate, but do you have the ITIL Red Bage"

[The Agents View]

1. The agent has another contractor available that he can convince to take a lower rate.

What would be the point? rates vary according to experience alot of the time, so you put a substandard contractor in and it falls out two weeks later - bad business.

2. The agent has a lower-paying contract that he thinks you will take, while he puts someone else into Contract A, so getting 2 guys in.

If you've squeezed him beyond his minimum margin then this is possible - but most contract recruiters in this market don't have the volume of roles to do that. personally, I work a maximum of 2 roles at a time, and I look for the best fit to the role - it doesn't come down to rate - if you're the right person the client can generally be convinced, unless you're significantly over the top.

3. The agent has 3 guys put forward, and isn't allowed any more, so he keeps you out of that market by telling you that you are in for it (and you absolutely must not go via any other agent).

Then he's stupid - I've never worked on a role where I've had a limit to the number of CV's - but I never put more than 2 people forwards, because I will have checked, referenced, and backed up my thoughts on the individual - I then supply the references to the client as a selling tool - I'm a recruiter at the end of the day, people don't believe me, so I use the references as a backup to my thoughts - it gives you, me and your abilities credibility - believe it or not, contractors lie too - regularly. If you arrive too late, you should be told....thats a potential complaint to the REC right there...


4. The agent has a nice one coming up in a few weeks and wants you still to be available for it.
etc etc.

You need to work in recruitment to understand this, but when you're trying to place contractors, you take the first role you can get for them, you don't stockpile candidates on the basis of something that might come up.


Some of these contain at least an element that an agent may well see as being a legitimate part of his work: allocation of his resources to maximise income or profit. The problem comes when the agent's profit is not what the contractor wants to maximise, and the agent tells lies in order to get his way.

Catch these people out - please! The fewer sharks there are in this market place, the more effective I can be, because I won't have to deal with as much animosity towards trying to earn a living!

[Turion]

Don't put yourself forward twice. If you're not sure it isn't a problem for agent no 2 to check. I have never experienced an agent not putting me forward, and I did let one or two agents double check mainly because I wasn't sure if it was a different project in the same group.

How do you know that this has not happened? It happened to me and I know it because agents I trust have checked. It has happened 3 times that I know and probably more times that I do not know about. 2 of the 3 times it happened, and was submitted by other agent I landed the gig.

[The Agents View]

Stop! Stop!

My sides are hurting.....

I'm not sure what industry you work in, but the vast majority of agents I've dealt with have no clue at all. I've lost count of the conversations I've had where the consultant just reads a job spec at you with absolutely no understanding of it along with asking questions such as:

"I see you have Linux, Solaris, and AIX, but do you have any UNIX?"

Ahhhhh technical recruitment - the dumping ground for cr4p recruiters, along with in house recruitment.....

From a personal point of view, it doesn't work like that for me - i will have had a 40 odd minute conversation to try and establish what the client needs before speaking to you - Job specs are generally written by HR people, who don't understand how selection works, so if I haven't got access to the line manager, i'm not working the role - Chinese whispers are just too much of a pain. I'm also a specialist, who has done the job previously, so I'm unlikely to make a schoolboy error such as the one you are referring to - occassionally you get hit with something new, but even I can spot the error in that!!

I wish you guys didn't have to put up with underhand tactics, and would love to show you the other way - Perhaps a good way to overcome the references, fishing, etc etc issues is to ask your agents to provide references to you - I do that on a regular basis, and I hope it helps in my quest to select the best, and use them, rather than go out to the general market - keep it in the network, that's what it's all about.......

[TheFaQQer]

[QUOTE=b0redom;714879"I see you have Linux, Solaris, and AIX, but do you have any UNIX?"[/QUOTE]

"I need someone with spoke experience. Have you used it before?"

"Sorry?"

"It says here - must have experience with b-spoke development"

[DodgyAgent]

Long time lurker, first time poster here - be gentle.

I can't just sit back and let this thread continue - there's way too much inaccurate information included thus far!

There are several issues to being submitted twice. Representation is often secured through the terms of business of the company, and the relationship the recruiter has with the client.

If....

.....you've been represented by an agency, and a second agency puts you forwards, then you are the one who looks unprofessional - your relationship with your "pimp" (as you all seem to call us) should be strong enough for them to trust you enough to reveal the client name - if it's not, why are you even considering going for a role with them?? - if you've been represented to that client already, you waste the time of the agent, the time of the client, and almost certainly scupper your chances of getting the role. You also damage the relationship with the consultant, who will see you as a waste of time - there are plenty of contractors on the market right now - they'll just move on to the next one.

.....you're not told the name of the company - why are you going for the role? Any consultant worth his salt, will build relations with you, check you out, reference you, and understand you in enough detail to present reasoned argument as to why you should be taken on for the role - they will also TELL YOU who the role is with - they don't want your name tarnished with that of a competitor. It also makes you look desperate if you are submitted twice. References ARE NOT a "fishing tool" when there's a genuine role - maybe in IT, but certainly not in my sector - I want to CONFIRM that you can deliver what you say you can - I will always ask how the horizion looks for the referee, but never ask directly "got any roles" - that's just unprofessional - if they sight one of their key challenges as "cant get enough contractors" (unlikely) then I might give them my service offering, but its never a "proactive tool".

.......you get represented twice, the bun fight is often something which turns off the client - and it is NEVER the professional consultancy who gets the deal - it's ALWAYS the one who worked quick, dirty and underhand. I will ONLY send a CV when I have two in depth references to back up my thoughts of the candidate - that takes alot more time, and sometimes opens us up to be blown out by the client - however I'd far rather do that and lose the odd deal, than put someone on site who doesn't do "what they say on the tin".....

Try working WITH your agencies a little more - give them roles, leads, and make friends with them - if you find a decent one, BUILD A RELATIONSHIP with them - it leads to less surprises, less monkies picking up money for providing the CV Sausage factory model, and ultimately means they'll be looking out for you when you need them most.

Cheers
TAV

Amidst your attempt at overegging yourself you do have a point about CVs being sent twice and why, if an agent knows his client he should not withold the clients name.

A number of other points. Don't listen to Turion. He is a selfish arrogant miserable tw*t who cannot hold down a contract for more than 5 minutes and blames agencies for his own inadequacies.

I am still at a loss as to why you need references before you put someone forward for a contract?

Finally I am not impressed by this "professional consultant" boll**ks of getting to know contractors. If needs must and timing is of paramount importance then the CV needs to be judged, the candidate qualified and then bunged in before anyone else gets a chance to beat you to the post.

the skill of recruitment is more to do with judging the needs of the client and the contractor in harmony with the skills that they have to offer. It is not about establishing long term relationships with contractors (clients yes, but sometimes you may not know the client who has the opportunity you are chasing, and nor do you have the time to "build the relationship").

[The Agents View]

I am still at a loss as to why you need references before you put someone forward for a contract?

Because my brand is everything to me - there are a lot of BS contractors out there, and I don't want to be associated with them - so I want to know that my contractor can do what he says he can - it also backs up my thoughts, and allows the client to see that.

Finally I am not impressed by this "professional consultant" boll**ks of getting to know contractors. If needs must and timing is of paramount importance then the CV needs to be judged, the candidate qualified and then bunged in before anyone else gets a chance to beat you to the post.

Wrong. If you build relationships, you build a network - if you build a network, you know who to go to, when and can get to the right person quicker than an agent trawling a job board or a database.

the skill of recruitment is more to do with judging the needs of the client and the contractor in harmony with the skills that they have to offer. It is not about establishing long term relationships with contractors (clients yes, but sometimes you may not know the client who has the opportunity you are chasing, and nor do you have the time to "build the relationship").

Well if you're not building relationships with Candidates, you're missing a trick my friend - Contractors very very quickly become clients when you look after them - especially in my sector. Plus everyone needs more friends - some of my contractors I count as friends, as well as candidates these days - but that might just be the way I work.....

[DodgyAgent]

Ahhhhh technical recruitment - the dumping ground for carp recruiters, along with in house recruitment.....

From a personal point of view, it doesn't work like that for me - i will have had a 40 odd minute conversation to try and establish what the client needs before speaking to you - Job specs are generally written by HR people, who don't understand how selection works, so if I haven't got access to the line manager, i'm not working the role - Chinese whispers are just too much of a pain. I'm also a specialist, who has done the job previously, so I'm unlikely to make a schoolboy error such as the one you are referring to - occassionally you get hit with something new, but even I can spot the error in that!!

I wish you guys didn't have to put up with underhand tactics, and would love to show you the other way - Perhaps a good way to overcome the references, fishing, etc etc issues is to ask your agents to provide references to you - I do that on a regular basis, and I hope it helps in my quest to select the best, and use them, rather than go out to the general market - keep it in the network, that's what it's all about.......

The bullsh*t is now flowing. I can just imagine some poor sod of a hiring manager having to listen to you for 40 minutes. No wonder these companies spend vast fortunes hiring staff and putting in procurement systems to protect their long suffering managers.

Let us get this reference thing straight. Despite what spivvy here has to say, references are a pain in the ar*e to follow up. This is why there has to be an ulterior motive for agents to request them.
Secondly references are not allowed to be used other than to establish the prescence of the contractor, so no one is obliged to comment on whether the contractor is any good or not.
Thirdly if a contractor is in work he will often not wish to compromise his/her position by allowing his/her boss to be approached over a reference. Therefore references only need to be given if the contractor receives an offer.

If the contractor is not working then yes references may be checked prior to interview. Any agent who claims that they need a reference prior to putting the CV forward or as a condition to putting the CV forward is a liar and 99.9% not likely to have a job in the first place.