Negotiating with a REAL headhunter?

[d000hg]

I just got an email out of the blue from an agency (nothing unusual there). But this is for a development/architecture role which needs a very specialist skill I just happen to have 3 years with, and which I've never heard of outside the one company I used it at. Kind of in the vein of PowerBuilder but more esoteric - I cannot find one single job post in the whole world for it from a few casual searches online, and it's not even listed on http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk.

The role is abroad (EU) which is not something I am terrifically keen on but apparently they are happy to pay a "high rate" and allow some flexibility. The problem is I have no idea what "high rate" means and of course the agent wants me to suggest what I would want to take it, rather than telling me what the will pay. I don't really know how much I would want to work abroad but in any case I would prefer to get the most they would pay. I'd kind of like to quote some just-on-the-edge-of-ridiculous rate but I don't even know what that would be.

I've no experience trying to play hardball and demand crazy figures and I'm really seeing this as more of a game right at the moment... but I'd like to know the rules. I don't expect I'll often be targeted for a specific skill-set since most of the stuff I do is more mainstream.

Any advice and anecdotes welcome... if you give advice please state if you actually have experience in a similar situation

[ratewhore]

Step 1 - make sure it is a REAL headhunter you are talking to. Chances are it's not.

A real headhunter will know your skills and experience in fine detail already.

As for rate, if there is nothing to compare it to, can you work out the value of the program to the client (in terms of cost savings or whatever), then charge them a %age of that?

Just a thought...

[d000hg]

Well by REAL, I only mean that I specifically fit the rare skill-set they need... not that they actually know me by reputation which I guess is the correct definition... just want to make the point I actually have skills they might struggle to find elsewhere.

Good suggestion on the cost, but as a software developer/architect role I don't think it's too relevant here, this isn't a management role in any way (that I can tell so far).

[d000hg]

Quick update: managed to twist the agent's arm to give a ballpark figure of "€500-750/day" (£400-600). £600 is high compared with what I'm currently looking at but I don't know if it's high for a specialist skill and for a role I'd have to rent accommodation abroad for, while Mrs d000hg stays in the UK.
I also don't know how negotiable this is... if there is a lot room for discussion, or if the agent is trying to take a massive cut. My experience of high-rate negotiation all comes from watching people ask double what's being offered, in films on TV, which may not be quite life real life
If I was a ballsy kind of guy I'd come back with €1000, or "750 is ok if it was in pounds not euros".

I'm also interested in knowing the etiquette for accommodation and flights home at weekends... I don't want to sound naive by asking for those things to be paid for if this is not how things work... sounding naive is something I save for CUK

[andyg]

You may want to take into account the euro to sterling conversion, the cost of accommodation/living in Europe (I live in Spain and it ain't cheap anymore), the cost of getting to and from the UK (I travel back to London for work and Ryanair/Easyjet are not cheap).

[DS23]

you need to find out where the gig is and how easily you can get and stay there. analyse those expenses and come up with an all-in rate and a rate plus expenses. don't forget to look at tax liability.

expenses should be all transport, car parks, hotels and food.

ideally find two ways of traveling and staying - one if the client pays (nice)and one if you pay (cheaper). personally i prefer to do an all-in since there is less hassle in getting the expenses collated, submitted and paid plus it means a little slumming improves the rate.

i'm niche - perhaps not quite as niche as the job possibility you have there but i would imagine 750 euros plus expenses or 1000 euros all-in is about right but it might well need to be more if the location is tricky to get to, expensive to live at and has tax laws that will strip you.

[expat]

Quick update: managed to twist the agent's arm to give a ballpark figure of "€500-750/day" (£400-600). £600 is high compared with what I'm currently looking at but I don't know if it's high for a specialist skill and for a role I'd have to rent accommodation abroad for, while Mrs d000hg stays in the UK.
I also don't know how negotiable this is... if there is a lot room for discussion, or if the agent is trying to take a massive cut. My experience of high-rate negotiation all comes from watching people ask double what's being offered, in films on TV, which may not be quite life real life
If I was a ballsy kind of guy I'd come back with €1000, or "750 is ok if it was in pounds not euros".

I'm also interested in knowing the etiquette for accommodation and flights home at weekends... I don't want to sound naive by asking for those things to be paid for if this is not how things work... sounding naive is something I save for CUK

I have never got travel + accommodation included, but you could always ask. When they say not included, ask them what the inclusive rate would be. If they won't quote you, go away to check whether you can do it (and find out that you can't).

Sounds like the rate is good but not stellar. Is that OK with you? I mean, were you only thinking of taking it precisely because it would pay very well?

Why not test out travel + accomm? Get online and check flight times, prices; hotel prices on hotel.com or whatever. Add on meals, drinks. Budget it and see if you still like it.

UK-Ltd basis, or local umbrella? Expenses claimable?

Finally, I could ask how much you are prepared to do it for. Ask for that + 20%, accept yours. If OTOH it's just speculative, at least have a figure below which you will not go, and don't.

[ChimpMaster]

If you're that niche, and are leaving a permie job for a 1-off contract - you should really think about what you would do after that contract ends. It could end in 3 months or it could last 3 years... but who's to know?

I was/am quite niche but it doesn't sound as closed-loop as your skillset. When I left permiedom my aim was simply to save up as much as I could, because I knew that my niche skillset is drying up and there are only ever 5 or 6 contracts advertised each year in UK/Europe.

To compensate for the risk involved, I only left my (well paying) permiedom when I found a rate that was high enough to factor in the risk. This was something that I had to work out for myself, and be happy with myself.

[Moscow Mule]

I would avoid the all-in rate. IMO, companies tend to look at this and see a high-cost contractor.

In my niche, for a short(ish) term gig like you describe, I'd want to get about £600-£700 a day (a 25-30% premium on working in the UK for me), work out what that was in euros for the worst rate in the last 6 months and use that.

I'd then add on top,

Flights home every weekend (Friday/Monday - you really don't want to be travelling on a Sunday - it screw with your life)
Good hotel near to client (at least 4*, depending on country - 4* in Russia is about 3* everywhere else)
€50-70 Per diem for incidental expenses/food (you don't need to claim this from yourco - it can go down as profit if you prefer)

[expat]

Agree with other posters: if client pays expenses, it's normal business prices, if you pay then it is up to you whether you make money for yourself by slumming it.

As MM says, hotel near client; and don't travel Sunday. You are not replacing a local bum on a seat, they may not presume that you will present yourself at 8 or 9 every Monday morning. Also agree, it has to be (good UK rate) + (foreign premium) + (expenses directly or indirectly). If it doesn't cover that, you don't want it. And do not let anybody tell you a tale of other reasons why. Look to the money.

Inclusive rates are common for a contractor: if that makes the rate look too high and scares off a cheapskate client, so much the better. Ususally the PM will have a budget and will prefer to see a fixed sum. Possibly if they think of you as a consultant, and compare you with a guy from IBM or whoever, they'd find rate + exp more normal.