Negotiating with a REAL headhunter?

[DS23]

....Possibly if they think of you as a consultant, and compare you with a guy from IBM or whoever, they'd find rate + exp more normal.

yeah and still a shed load less money.

[d000hg]

If you're that niche, and are leaving a permie job for a 1-off contract - you should really think about what you would do after that contract ends. It could end in 3 months or it could last 3 years... but who's to know?

I am actually already contracting; looking for stuff doing C++/Flex/J2EE which are all areas I've worked in, seems I'm looking at maybe £350-400 for this kind of stuff which is hardly below the poverty level. It just happens that a job I was at for 3 years involved this rare technology as well as more normal stuff... everybody else was scared of it so being the kind of guy who always likes learning new things, I ended up being the one who was trained up on it and then mostly took over, as the experienced guy wasn't too keen on it.
I do agree with you that quiting a normal job for one contract is risky, especially right now.

[d000hg]

A lot of good advice here, much appreciated.

It sounds like a niche job in the UK might be expected to pay around the £600/day mark, especially for expensive enterprise level technology (which this is), or is that a little high outside the City? I think following the advice of "UK rate + more for working away + expenses" sounds a reasonable way to present things to the agent, and would be easier for me to discuss than just coming flat out with a number approaching €1000!

Quick side question: is it standard practice to travel business class on planes and 1st-class on trains. I get the impression it should be if you're flying home each weekend.

[expat]

...I think following the advice of "UK rate + more for working away + expenses" sounds a reasonable way to present things to the agent, and would be easier for me to discuss than just coming flat out with a number approaching €1000!

Quick side question: is it standard practice to travel business class on planes and 1st-class on trains. I get the impression it should be if you're flying home each weekend.

The client just wants the job done in budget. The agent wants max profit but may see your point; however they really don't care about the arithmetic- it's a deal or no deal. It is you who need to keep in mind the money you need, and not make a bum deal by not asking enough.

You do cost more than a local guy might. They can take that or leave it, don't let them convince you that you have a moral obligation to act as if you live near the client. Neither of you is trying to convince the other of the logic of their case, you're just offering a deal, and either it's a deal or it's no deal.

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

[Moscow Mule]

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

Same here. I ask for business class on all flights over 4 hours. Fortunately I haven't had too many gigs where that's been required.

A neat way around it is to insist on fully flexible economy fares. Often you can upgrade yourself to business for next to nothing.

[d000hg]

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

Darn it, that doesn't fit into the mentality of a HPC at all!

[expat]

Darn it, that doesn't fit into the mentality of a HPC at all!

Oops. sorry, I'm talking tulipe. Bus class is common for a consultant. Except those who pay their own bills.

[d000hg]

Email discussion:

Me: "€500-750 that seems a bit low, it's about the same as doing the same role in the UK, although it depends on expenses".
Agent: "I will pay €750 all-in".

Seems like a reasonable hotel is ~€100/day, and flights about £400/week ~ €100/day. That brings it down to €550/day or a little over £400, not a whole lot more than I could get working from home. No-go if not negotiable.
He doesn't sound too open to negotiation but I think he's from Europe and maybe the terseness is due to language issues.
Going to talk on the phone later today, any advice?

edit: Thinking about how I am much better at being bolshy via email than on the phone, and how I don't actually need the contract, I'm considering sending an email back "if that is the best rate you can get, it's not worth us speaking" or something as strongly worded. I'm not often in a position to risk being rude to a potential source of work but I know some people use such techniques and seem to benefit from it.

update: an email I sent...

X,

If €750 is the best you can get, with no expenses, then it is probably not worth going any further. Accommodation & food can easily be €100 per day and travel could be about the same (just flying economy class each week is about €400).
That leaves an actual rate of around €550 and I can get €500/day doing work-from-home Java/Flex/.net development. A specialist skill demands a high rate but unless your client can find someone locally I think they need to realize they have to pay a good rate plus an extra amount to get someone to work abroad.

Is it still worth discussing this? I don’t want to waste your time or mine of our time if it definitely won’t go anywhere…

[Liability]

Well played mate - I am going through the same thing right now where I was asked what Id like as they couldnt put a price and it is a States driven contract but based in the UK.

I played it as a varied rate on the market but you get what yoy pay for and then went in high. Just have to wait and see what happens - better to go high and then negotiate then to go low and be a bum

[BlasterBates]

EUR 750 is top wack in Euro land, you won't get any more.

Normally you would expect 500-600