Reply to: Negotiating with a REAL headhunter?

[DodgyAgent]

Step 1 - make sure it is a REAL headhunter you are talking to. Chances are it's not.

A real headhunter will know your skills and experience in fine detail already.

As for rate, if there is nothing to compare it to, can you work out the value of the program to the client (in terms of cost savings or whatever), then charge them a %age of that?

Just a thought...

A "real" headhunter is paid money up front by a client. The real headhunter will use researchers to find every employee within a business/skill/geographical area.
Sounds to me that this is simply a contingency recruitment agency using a bit of nous. Which means that he will not be that close to the client.

[expat]

Even for working abroad? That's not really any more than I see for UK-based contracts. Surely the whole reason to bring in someone from overseas is because you're desperate for some skills you can't get locally?


Anyway, it seems expenses won't be something that goes through on top, so I'd have to get the rate up. Immediately I sent the email above, I got offered €850 and later, on the phone, was effectively told "name your price, the money is not the biggest issue". Which is nice to hear

Good that you didn't just accept the first offer, then. That would have "defined" the market price.

[DS23]

boomed! congrats.

[d000hg]

Even for working abroad? That's not really any more than I see for UK-based contracts. Surely the whole reason to bring in someone from overseas is because you're desperate for some skills you can't get locally?


Anyway, it seems expenses won't be something that goes through on top, so I'd have to get the rate up. Immediately I sent the email above, I got offered €850 and later, on the phone, was effectively told "name your price, the money is not the biggest issue". Which is nice to hear

[BlasterBates]

EUR 750 is top wack in Euro land, you won't get any more.

Normally you would expect 500-600

[Liability]

Well played mate - I am going through the same thing right now where I was asked what Id like as they couldnt put a price and it is a States driven contract but based in the UK.

I played it as a varied rate on the market but you get what yoy pay for and then went in high. Just have to wait and see what happens - better to go high and then negotiate then to go low and be a bum

[d000hg]

Email discussion:

Me: "€500-750 that seems a bit low, it's about the same as doing the same role in the UK, although it depends on expenses".
Agent: "I will pay €750 all-in".

Seems like a reasonable hotel is ~€100/day, and flights about £400/week ~ €100/day. That brings it down to €550/day or a little over £400, not a whole lot more than I could get working from home. No-go if not negotiable.
He doesn't sound too open to negotiation but I think he's from Europe and maybe the terseness is due to language issues.
Going to talk on the phone later today, any advice?

edit: Thinking about how I am much better at being bolshy via email than on the phone, and how I don't actually need the contract, I'm considering sending an email back "if that is the best rate you can get, it's not worth us speaking" or something as strongly worded. I'm not often in a position to risk being rude to a potential source of work but I know some people use such techniques and seem to benefit from it.

update: an email I sent...

X,

If €750 is the best you can get, with no expenses, then it is probably not worth going any further. Accommodation & food can easily be €100 per day and travel could be about the same (just flying economy class each week is about €400).
That leaves an actual rate of around €550 and I can get €500/day doing work-from-home Java/Flex/.net development. A specialist skill demands a high rate but unless your client can find someone locally I think they need to realize they have to pay a good rate plus an extra amount to get someone to work abroad.

Is it still worth discussing this? I don’t want to waste your time or mine of our time if it definitely won’t go anywhere…

[expat]

Darn it, that doesn't fit into the mentality of a HPC at all!

Oops. sorry, I'm talking tulipe. Bus class is common for a consultant. Except those who pay their own bills.

[d000hg]

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

Darn it, that doesn't fit into the mentality of a HPC at all!

[Moscow Mule]

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

Same here. I ask for business class on all flights over 4 hours. Fortunately I haven't had too many gigs where that's been required.

A neat way around it is to insist on fully flexible economy fares. Often you can upgrade yourself to business for next to nothing.

[expat]

...I think following the advice of "UK rate + more for working away + expenses" sounds a reasonable way to present things to the agent, and would be easier for me to discuss than just coming flat out with a number approaching €1000!

Quick side question: is it standard practice to travel business class on planes and 1st-class on trains. I get the impression it should be if you're flying home each weekend.

The client just wants the job done in budget. The agent wants max profit but may see your point; however they really don't care about the arithmetic- it's a deal or no deal. It is you who need to keep in mind the money you need, and not make a bum deal by not asking enough.

You do cost more than a local guy might. They can take that or leave it, don't let them convince you that you have a moral obligation to act as if you live near the client. Neither of you is trying to convince the other of the logic of their case, you're just offering a deal, and either it's a deal or it's no deal.

Business class on planes is uncommon in my experience (except for longer flights): but I'd say 1st on trains is quite normal. Just my opinion.

[d000hg]

A lot of good advice here, much appreciated.

It sounds like a niche job in the UK might be expected to pay around the £600/day mark, especially for expensive enterprise level technology (which this is), or is that a little high outside the City? I think following the advice of "UK rate + more for working away + expenses" sounds a reasonable way to present things to the agent, and would be easier for me to discuss than just coming flat out with a number approaching €1000!

Quick side question: is it standard practice to travel business class on planes and 1st-class on trains. I get the impression it should be if you're flying home each weekend.

[d000hg]

If you're that niche, and are leaving a permie job for a 1-off contract - you should really think about what you would do after that contract ends. It could end in 3 months or it could last 3 years... but who's to know?

I am actually already contracting; looking for stuff doing C++/Flex/J2EE which are all areas I've worked in, seems I'm looking at maybe £350-400 for this kind of stuff which is hardly below the poverty level. It just happens that a job I was at for 3 years involved this rare technology as well as more normal stuff... everybody else was scared of it so being the kind of guy who always likes learning new things, I ended up being the one who was trained up on it and then mostly took over, as the experienced guy wasn't too keen on it.
I do agree with you that quiting a normal job for one contract is risky, especially right now.

[DS23]

....Possibly if they think of you as a consultant, and compare you with a guy from IBM or whoever, they'd find rate + exp more normal.

yeah and still a shed load less money.

[expat]

Agree with other posters: if client pays expenses, it's normal business prices, if you pay then it is up to you whether you make money for yourself by slumming it.

As MM says, hotel near client; and don't travel Sunday. You are not replacing a local bum on a seat, they may not presume that you will present yourself at 8 or 9 every Monday morning. Also agree, it has to be (good UK rate) + (foreign premium) + (expenses directly or indirectly). If it doesn't cover that, you don't want it. And do not let anybody tell you a tale of other reasons why. Look to the money.

Inclusive rates are common for a contractor: if that makes the rate look too high and scares off a cheapskate client, so much the better. Ususally the PM will have a budget and will prefer to see a fixed sum. Possibly if they think of you as a consultant, and compare you with a guy from IBM or whoever, they'd find rate + exp more normal.