I just need to get two references ...

[pmeswani]

I'll clear up this situation now with some facts.

Recruitment Agencies are regulated and as part of the REC and BERR regulations they must be able to demonstrate several pieces of infomation in their audit trail.

This does include the ability to demonstrate why a CV has been submitted to a role.

At the Agency that I work at (Rethink Recruitment) we need to have the following information before we can submit a shortlist to our clients...this is for every person that we put forward.

The infomation is:

1. Request copy of ID – must be eligible
2. Send ‘Opt Out/Out In’ template
3. Send email template to candidate explaining that ReThink are acting as an Employment Business and requesting they confirm ReThink can represent them
4. Two references must be be taken on every contractor submitted

I know that agencies have a bad name but it is now a legal requirement for them to be able to show due diligence when/if they are audited.

I'd be suspicous of someone asking for this infomation on the first call..unless you are the perfect match. Chances are that an agent will speak to you, run through some brief details about the role and yourself. Hang up. Asess you and the others and then call back to gain the rest of the information for them to be compliant.

If you really want to check whether they are lying or not contact your referrees and find out what was asked of them. The agent should be asessing your suitability for the role based on your referees information. If they are not - report them to the REC - thats what it is there for.

Take heart..this is designed to ensure that clients are getting the right people and are not just spammed with CV's.

Finally if the agent does ask your referee if they recruit you can hardly blame them - its probably how they got the job that they are putting you forward to in the 1st place.

Nick

Please can you send me a link to the respective Government site that makes such stipulation that references are needed before introducing the contractor to a client?

A lot of agencies phone up and phish for references without even covering anything about any role that they are allegedly considering me for.. therefore I don't see why I should provide them with any references just so that they can find out if any employment opportunities exist with my previous clients / employers.

[jmo21]

While I have been hit up for references under this kind of pretense before and laughed it off, there are agents who don't try to get references off you.

so trying to pretend it's anything other than a so-called policy of some agencies themselves in order to get leads, is nonsense.

[Mich the Tester]

While I have been hit up for references under this kind of pretense before and laughed it off, there are agents who don't try to get references off you.

so trying to pretend it's anything other than a so-called policy of some agencies themselves in order to get leads, is nonsense.

Perhaps it's a good reason to avoid using agents that are members of the Recruitment and Employment Confederation. Just ask them on the phone and then say 'it is against MyCo's social responsibility policy to work with agents who are members of organisations suspected of lobbying government to legalise corruption.'

[NY]

Hello,

Can I just point out that I am no legal expert before I post this. I have gone and found the relevant information which is detailed in the EAA - Employment Agencies Act.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20033319.htm#19

Whether you agree or disagree with how this has come about, this is the law. I can understand peoples frustration due to unscrupulous agents but there are some of us that try and offer a service that works within the law and for the benefit of all involved.

The main section that applies is as follows:

Confirmation to be obtained about a work-seeker

19. Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation -

(a) of the identity of the work-seeker;

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

So basically, this states that we cant introduce someone until we have checked that what you are saying is correct. An agency was audited recently and the auditors asked to see all copies of references taken to prove experience and matching to the jobs for cv's submitted.

I know this is a sore point for most but I'm only trying to shed a little light on this scenario.

I'm sure you'll alll have a view on this!

[NY]

Please can you send me a link to the respective Government site that makes such stipulation that references are needed before introducing the contractor to a client?

A lot of agencies phone up and phish for references without even covering anything about any role that they are allegedly considering me for.. therefore I don't see why I should provide them with any references just so that they can find out if any employment opportunities exist with my previous clients / employers.

Please see my reponse when it gets past the moderator

[Mich the Tester]

(a) of the identity of the work-seeker;

Easy this one; I'll bring my passport to the interview.

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

I'll bring my certificates too, and if ClientCo asks, I'll give the references

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

Ask me


None of those requirements say anything about demanding leads (I'm not even going to call them references) before offering the CV to the ClientCo. If the references really were important, the law would state they should be provided when ClientCo chooses to interview the person, not as a condition to get the interview.

[NY]

(a) of the identity of the work-seeker;

Easy this one; I'll bring my passport to the interview.

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

I'll bring my certificates too, and if ClientCo asks, I'll give the references

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

Ask me


None of those requirements say anything about demanding leads (I'm not even going to call them references) before offering the CV to the ClientCo. If the references really were important, the law would state they should be provided when ClientCo chooses to interview the person, not as a condition to get the interview.

Hi Mich,

I can see that you wont be convinced on this...but one last try...if you read the paragraph before your quoute you will see that these requirements must be satisfied before you are submitted..

Hence taking your passport, your certificates and references to the end client doesnt satisfy the EAA in terms of the agency, and therefore the agent would be in breach.

An agent has a legal responsibilty to ensure the following before submitting you:

that you have:

experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary

Qualifications as you say are easy - copy of certificate

Training - the same

Experience - if you could tell me how to verify this without referencing you then I'd be happy to hear this. Have you ever considered just giving the HR contacts at the companies you have worked at before, this would do.

I dont make the rules and can see your frustration but simply point blank saying that all agents are lying when they ask for this information is just too general.

I've tried to provide you with as much evidence as I can
that these regs exist. My suggestion is either stop using agencies or work out a way that you can verify that your information is not being abused.

I hope this helps, not trying to say that agents are saints in anyway but at least this one knows the actual reasons that these questions are asked.

Like I said if you can tell me a way to verify your experiences without a reference I'd be keen to hear it.

The bottom line is that if an agent is asking for this information they should be putting you forward to a client. It should only be taken after the agent has made their shortlist and should mean that you are 1 of however many going forward to a role.

[bassy]

Hello,

Can I just point out that I am no legal expert before I post this. I have gone and found the relevant information which is detailed in the EAA - Employment Agencies Act.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2003/20033319.htm#19

Whether you agree or disagree with how this has come about, this is the law. I can understand peoples frustration due to unscrupulous agents but there are some of us that try and offer a service that works within the law and for the benefit of all involved.

The main section that applies is as follows:

Confirmation to be obtained about a work-seeker

19. Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation -

(a) of the identity of the work-seeker;

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

So basically, this states that we cant introduce someone until we have checked that what you are saying is correct. An agency was audited recently and the auditors asked to see all copies of references taken to prove experience and matching to the jobs for cv's submitted.

I know this is a sore point for most but I'm only trying to shed a little light on this scenario.

I'm sure you'll alll have a view on this!

Problem is some agents read this then jump immediately on to it. However, they do not take into account that we can opt-out of the agency regulations which you have quoted above which therefore means that you don't need to ask for that information. To be honest though some agencies expect you to opt-out of the regs to alleviate having to do all the above but still strangely expect you to give references (which from reading the regs are only needed if you opt-in) Strange that.

Not only that the regs are littered with words such as work-seeker and speaks of us as individuals - nowhere does it take into account our companies through which we work and seems to be more designed for "temp" workers - which we are not. The sooner agents start offering proper B2B contracts and stop treating us as though we were temps then the better off we will both be - less of an administrative nightmare for you and better structured contracts for us - but then I cant see that happening as then agents can't twist the regulations in order to get "sales leads" from us.

[Archangel]

Bassy has hit the nail on the head here, it is MY COMPANY seeking "work", not me as an individual. When ClientCo need phone services from BT, they do not ask for their passport/references. When I shop at Tesco, I don't ask to see the checkout persons work permit.

Start thinking in terms of business to business relationships, not bums on seats.

[original PM]

Bassy has hit the nail on the head here, it is MY COMPANY seeking "work", not me as an individual. When ClientCo need phone services from BT, they do not ask for their passport/references. When I shop at Tesco, I don't ask to see the checkout persons work permit.

Start thinking in terms of business to business relationships, not bums on seats.

You make a few good points but the biggest frustration most professional contractors have is that you are not employing them you are engaging their company in a buisness to business arrangment - whilst occasionally companies do post references from previous clients on their website etc it is not a normal course of action to ask for them.


You do not want to employ the people due to risk and expenses involved - neither does the client - so please stop treating us like employees or prospective employees.

Hey NY at Rethink that is now 3 posts stating the same thing - we are not employees.

Stop thinking like you are engaging employees.

You are engaging other companies to work with your client company.

The majority of us will want to opt out of the EAA regulations as they were originally formed to protect vulnerable workers (e.g. cockle pickers in Morecambe and Fruit pickers in the South East) who were being exploited by gang masters posing as Agencies.

The EAA regulations were never really meant to cover professional contractors but as usual the powers that be tried a one size fits all solution.

In addition to this I used to be in recruitment and I know for a fact that 90% of the time the reference details collected were used to try to gain more business.

I appreciate that you are trying to do the right thing by the client and obtain references but I will pretty much guarantee that their HR department do not gain references on many of the staff simply because nowadays references are hardly worth the paper they are written on.For two main reasons

1) The law restricts the amount of information that can be put on the reference and what can or cannot be said.
2) How do we know that the person giving the reference has no personal grudge and as such the reference may well be a fabrication of the truth anyway.