When to hotel and when not to? Plus overseas end users / consultancies?

[ApeShape]

Couple of questions I've been meaning to get off my chest for a bit.

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy. I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option. Kind of a grey area I think.

Second, IR35. I've read the rules and I think it's obvious but how about this scenario. End user is overseas. The role resourced through a UK recruiter, on behalf of an Overseas only consultancy (no UK presence) and the end-client is Overseas based (but with a UK presence) The contract is with the consultancy. IR35 determination applicable here or default to Outside?

[WTFH]

Couple of questions I've been meaning to get off my chest for a bit.

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy. I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option. Kind of a grey area I think.

Second, IR35. I've read the rules and I think it's obvious but how about this scenario. End user is overseas. The role resourced through a UK recruiter, on behalf of an Overseas only consultancy (no UK presence) and the end-client is Overseas based (but with a UK presence) The contract is with the consultancy. IR35 determination applicable here or default to Outside?

You say your client is overseas, so why are you going to a UK site? What aren't you telling us?

[eek]

Couple of questions I've been meaning to get off my chest for a bit.

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy. I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option. Kind of a grey area I think.

Second, IR35. I've read the rules and I think it's obvious but how about this scenario. End user is overseas. The role resourced through a UK recruiter, on behalf of an Overseas only consultancy (no UK presence) and the end-client is Overseas based (but with a UK presence) The contract is with the consultancy. IR35 determination applicable here or default to Outside?

UK Presence at the end client so IR35 determination required.

HMRC's viewpoint will be that the consultancy is really just another agency which is why I'm giving that answer.

You say your client is overseas, so why are you going to a UK site? What aren't you telling us?

Nothing - everything you need to know is in the original post...

[northernladuk]

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy. I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option. Kind of a grey area I think.

Hotels are rarely part of a contract negotiation. That's your problem, not your clients. They pay you to do work wherever that is. It's your responsibility to turn up in the morning and do that work. There are rare occasions where the work requires you to travel and you can discuss hotels but for your average run of the mill gig travel and accommodation is your problem, not your clients. Unless you are super niche or the best in your field then hotels don't factor in to negotiations.

Not a grey area at all.

Second, IR35. I've read the rules and I think it's obvious but how about this scenario. End user is overseas. The role resourced through a UK recruiter, on behalf of an Overseas only consultancy (no UK presence) and the end-client is Overseas based (but with a UK presence) The contract is with the consultancy. IR35 determination applicable here or default to Outside?

There is no default to outside. If it does meet the wholly overseas criteria it means you make the determination using the proper contract checks. No contract is default outside. If the contract has no RoS, and you are under D&C you have to determine it's inside. If it passes contract checks then you can run it as outside.

You have to be very careful with your wording and the relationship in the chain is. You mention the consultancy is overseas but you also say 'the end client' has a UK presence. If we were to take that literally then then the 'end client' has to make the determination as per this article.
https://www.qdoscontractor.com/news/...verseas-client

[ApeShape]

Okay re the hotel, assuming the gig was willing to pay expenses do you think staying in a hotel is OTT if it's only 2 hours away (100 miles ish granny speeds)


Just to add to the confusion, with this contract the actual contract (paperwork) from overseas, with an overseas address given as the issuer etc. I wish I was bothered to draw a flow chart.

Recruiter (UK) > Recruiter (Overseas arm and contract issuer) > Consultancy (overseas only) > end client (overseas with UK bases)

I presume the above changes nothing though and I take note.

[eek]

Okay re the hotel, assuming the gig was willing to pay expenses do you think staying in a hotel is OTT if it's only 2 hours away (100 miles ish granny speeds)


Just to add to the confusion, with this contract the actual contract (paperwork) from overseas, with an overseas address given as the issuer etc. I wish I was bothered to draw a flow chart.

Recruiter (UK) > Recruiter (Overseas arm and contract issuer) > Consultancy (overseas only) > end client (overseas with UK bases)

I presume the above changes nothing though and I take note.

It's the UK Presence that is important there, which is why you need an IR35 determination from the end client.

As for the hotel it's personal choice and negotiation. It's never been common for UK contractors to get travel expenses but a consultancy would usually have separate travel expenses for onsite work, so ask them what their policy is.

[NotAllThere]

Couple of questions I've been meaning to get off my chest for a bit.

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy.

Four hours on the road a day is too much. Three hours is doable with a comfortable car. (Did it for two years).

I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option.

I can't for the life of me think of a scenario where the client picking up the hotel bill isn't a better option.

Second, IR35. I've read the rules and I think it's obvious but how about this scenario. End user is overseas. The role resourced through a UK recruiter, on behalf of an Overseas only consultancy (no UK presence) and the end-client is Overseas based (but with a UK presence) The contract is with the consultancy. IR35 determination applicable here or default to Outside?

End client has presence in the UK = end client makes the determination (unless company is "small").

[ladymuck]

First of all at what stage do you deem a hotel necessary when negotiating a contract? Say you're required to be on-site only 2-3 days a week but it's two hours drive away. Is a hotel stay a bit excessive for something that close? Still a bit of a drive it's not like a 8 hour drive or something crazy. I presume if the client is willing to pay then a hotel might be the better option. Kind of a grey area I think.

So you've applied for a role, been told where it is, agreed to be put forward for it at the advertised rate and then start thinking you'll get the client to pay for accommodation?

Unless the client approached you and asked 'what do you want in order to do this work for me', I think you're asking far too late in the process.

[eek]

So you've applied for a role, been told where it is, agreed to be put forward for it at the advertised rate and then start thinking you'll get the client to pay for accommodation?

Unless the client approached you and asked 'what do you want in order to do this work for me', I think you're asking far too late in the process.

Surely that depends on the consultancy? Previously I got expenses because the consultancy's standards T&Cs said expenses for consultants are chargeable so the costs I charged were just passed to the end client.

Separately years back another consultancy were charging subsistence to the end client for their consultants even though as a contractor I couldn't claim any expenses.

The subsequent invoice was rejected out of hand for reasons that the consultancy couldn't fathom until the phrase "expenses fraud" was uttered and I pointed out that both the end client's Finance Director and myself sat on the same board of Governors of a local school. You would have thought the consultancy would have known about the potential issue when on discussing the client's location I said it was a nice 10 minute walk from home.

[ladymuck]

Surely that depends on the consultancy? Previously I got expenses because the consultancy's standards T&Cs said expenses for consultants are chargeable so the costs I charged were just passed to the end client.

The impression I was given from the OP was that they are trying to think of things to negotiate now they've realised they might have to drive a few hours a couple of times a week.

Not sure where the drive/hotel argument fits if the client and consultancy are overseas based. I guess they will be attending the client's UK site to work with a team not based in the UK?