Statement of Work (SoW) being outside of IR35?

[northernladuk]

I’m not sure you’re right.
It would be easy for a client to simply issue an inside SDS based on known facts and leave the rest up to the contractor.
The choice to use an umbrella is the contractors. It makes sense but it’s the other way round to what you think.

He's kind of right but he's still got it wrong, as usual.

They have LTD's on board when they do the SDS. That means they will determine the role is inside AND THEN force them down the brolly route. So he's totally wrong that they won't deem LTD's inside. They will and then the contractor has a choice of FTC, brolly or agency PAYE.

What they won't do is deem them inside and then let them carry on as LTDs.

His whole post is nonsense in the way he's phrased it. He kinda gets the outcome right but not by his explaination.

[rocktronAMP]

I only base my analysis on hard evidence.

I can see the level of work done by every developer at the client site via Git.

When i say i provide at least £2000 a day of value to the client, it is based on that evidence and not just my opinion.

To quote Kevlin Henney

"Code is a liability. Every line of code is a commitment: to maintain it; to explain it; to a direction."

And I will have to add, you need to test the code that is written. Is it quality? Is it the expected behaviour of the system?
Programming is not bashing keys like an automatron or monkey.

For anyone who cares about software quality,
ITT 2016 - Kevlin Henney - Seven Ineffective Coding Habits of Many Programmers
hence is a good talk from GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney - YouTube

[Paralytic]

To quote Kevlin Henney

"Code is a liability. Every line of code is a commitment: to maintain it; to explain it; to a direction."

And I will have to add, you need to test the code that is written. Is it quality? Is it the expected behaviour of the system?
Programming is not bashing keys like an automatron or monkey.

For anyone who cares about software quality,
ITT 2016 - Kevlin Henney - Seven Ineffective Coding Habits of Many Programmers
hence is a good talk from GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney - YouTube

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

[Paralytic]

I actually look inside the code commits, you can actually see what any developer has done within seconds with the visual code review systems we have these days.

Did your client know you were using their time/money to review other developers code?

[ladymuck]

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

My fella says he used to like deleting huge chucks of code from what his dev team produced as invariably they would recode it better in fewer lines.

[Fraidycat]

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

These days managers are more concerned with test code coverage (at least the managers at current client are), they dont care about LOCs.

Also tickets, they want to see the backlog cleared of outstanding defects and high priority features requests implemented.

Code commits are generally tied to JIRA ticket resolutions. I dont just bang out code for codes sake. There is normally a feature request or bug fix request behind every commit.

And I normally refactor/simplfy code as part of that work. But can also raise tickets for explicit refactoring as well and that may include removing more lines of code than adding.

[Fraidycat]

That wasn't my point - HMRC's favourite example is 2 Solicitors paid the same £60,000 (yes I know the example is insane). One is an employee one was using a limited company. The one using a limited company shouldn't be because they both do the same job.

HMRC would love for IR35 assessments to be that simple. But if they really believed that example they would have sent out 100s of thousands or IR35 tax demands over the last 20 years. But even HMRC know IR35 is not that simple.

[eek]

HMRC would love for IR35 assessments to be that simple. But if they really believed that example they would have sent out 100s of thousands or IR35 tax demands over the last 20 years. But even HMRC know IR35 is not that simple.

Look at how it used to work.

Look at how it works as of April

Things are going to be very different.