IR35 reform pushed back

[northernladuk]

What makes you so certain about this?

It's unchartered waters at the moment and you're talking like you're the all seeing Oracle?

Because we've been here with the public sector including delays and we've been here before with delays in the private sector. Don't really need an all seeing eye to put 2 and 2 together do you? It's being delays, not cancelled. Nothing much changed in all the other delays so why should it this time. It will still hit, clients will still admit their workforce is inside and we are back to where we were. So not uncharted waters at all. Maybe for the raft off noobs we've seen recently as they have another opportunity to not understand and ask their way out of it again but for the rest it's still clear enough to make a statement.

Yes there are some cases where the client has blanketed inside where you could argue some of those people got an incorrect determination but lets not forget the fact many would have been moved inside even if it was done individually. By self determining outside when you know full well the gig was going inside or will be is only putting off the situation they are facing by another year including a year of incorrect self determination that will add to the HMRC investigation.

[northernladuk]

Your posts smack of a permie who doesn't like people avoiding taxes that they are forced to pay. Curious as to what your current employment / contracting situation is? It might help put your advice into context.

Not at all. Just stating facts. Many people that are still not understanding what has happened and why they got in inside determination will now thing they are free to work outside when the client has clearly stated how they want to treat the contractor. That's just ridiculous and all it does is add another year to the problem they are struggling with now. It's just common sense.

[SteelyDan]

It's a welcome reprieve, but given the covid situation, will clients actually have roles for contractors to do, given ukplc is on the verge of major disruption, working remotely, from home, or not at all, etc. for quite a few months at least? Not all roles can be done remotely. I suppose the job boards will tell us in due course.

[northernladuk]

Not at all. Just stating facts. Many people that are still not understanding what has happened and why they got in inside determination will now thing they are free to work outside when the client has clearly stated how they want to treat the contractor. That's just ridiculous and all it does is add another year to the problem they are struggling with now. It's just common sense.

And already here is the perfect example.

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2745060

[JPC]

Not at all. Just stating facts. Many people that are still not understanding what has happened and why they got in inside determination will now thing they are free to work outside when the client has clearly stated how they want to treat the contractor. That's just ridiculous and all it does is add another year to the problem they are struggling with now. It's just common sense.

And it adds another years worth of fines to their magic retrospective tax savings plan + their own unique interest rates.

[quackhandle]

I look forward to your all knowing and likely sarcastic and unhelpful reply.

I have a new signature.

qh

[Agent]

Because we've been here with the public sector including delays and we've been here before with delays in the private sector. Don't really need an all seeing eye to put 2 and 2 together do you? It's being delays, not cancelled. Nothing much changed in all the other delays so why should it this time. It will still hit, clients will still admit their workforce is inside and we are back to where we were. So not uncharted waters at all. Maybe for the raft off noobs we've seen recently as they have another opportunity to not understand and ask their way out of it again but for the rest it's still clear enough to make a statement.

Yes there are some cases where the client has blanketed inside where you could argue some of those people got an incorrect determination but lets not forget the fact many would have been moved inside even if it was done individually. By self determining outside when you know full well the gig was going inside or will be is only putting off the situation they are facing by another year including a year of incorrect self determination that will add to the HMRC investigation.

Things may change because during the public sector reforms, we we not going through a global pandemic - these are unprecedented times. Everything has changed in the last 3 months and this will likely impact decisions and policies for the next 3 years at least. I wouldn't be surprised to see significant changes, further delays etc.

I have a contractor at the moment who only has the right to work in the UK on a self-employment visa, he doesn't have the option of going umbrella even if he wanted to. His contract was declared inside IR35 by a business that has very little understanding of the regulations and aired on the extreme side of caution throughout every determination question. For example, saying he doesn't have the right to work from any location (which he does have both contractually and physically), their positionoing was that because they would 'prefer' that he didn't work outside of the office, they answered the question saying that he can only work from a fixed office location. He's now working from home, as are all rest of the business.

He's a very swicthed on guy and he now has the option to take some of that risk on himself by making his own determination. Of course there is still a risk (and perhaps a high one) but the alternative was that he would simply be out of work come 6th April with a very bleak outlook on finding a new role any time soon. He can now stay on with his contract, support his family and if he chooses, put money aside for any potential liability - although I have no idea he he could ever be investigated to pay UK PAYE taxes when he's unable to legally work in the UK other than self-employed.

[northernladuk]

Things may change because during the public sector reforms, we we not going through a global pandemic - these are unprecedented times. Everything has changed in the last 3 months and this will likely impact decisions and policies for the next 3 years at least. I wouldn't be surprised to see significant changes, further delays etc.

Why? The delay is based on the virus alone. It's not like it's to debate the details of the implementation like the other delays. When the virus calms down it will hit in it's current form. May not but that's the best way to plan. It was going ahead and it will again. Even Sir Dave Chaplin can't stop that.

I have a contractor at the moment who only has the right to work in the UK on a self-employment visa, he doesn't have the option of going umbrella even if he wanted to. His contract was declared inside IR35 by a business that has very little understanding of the regulations and aired on the extreme side of caution throughout every determination question. For example, saying he doesn't have the right to work from any location (which he does have both contractually and physically), their positionoing was that because they would 'prefer' that he didn't work outside of the office, they answered the question saying that he can only work from a fixed office location. He's now working from home, as are all rest of the business.

How does someone on a self employed visa work as a LTD company? But that aside
Working from home during a pandemic is completely different to a client not wanting him to. Pointless us carrying the discussion on if you can't see the difference.

He's a very swicthed on guy and he now has the option to take some of that risk on himself by making his own determination. Of course there is still a risk (and perhaps a high one) but the alternative was that he would simply be out of work come 6th April with a very bleak outlook on finding a new role any time soon. He can now stay on with his contract, support his family and if he chooses, put money aside for any potential liability - although I have no idea he he could ever be investigated to pay UK PAYE taxes when he's unable to legally work in the UK other than self-employed.

Correct a high one as he knows exactly where the client will go next year. From what I've read recently HMRC can consider that fraud and open investigations where the wouldn't normally.

And yes, he can work the year if he has no other income but that doesn't mean it's right or he's going to be in a better place when it hits. All he's doing is delaying the inevitable. Hence my words of caution that nothing has changed, just delayed.

I'm still don't get his engagement method though. Self employed inside/outside?

[escapeUK]

Not at all. Just stating facts. Many people that are still not understanding what has happened and why they got in inside determination will now thing they are free to work outside when the client has clearly stated how they want to treat the contractor. That's just ridiculous and all it does is add another year to the problem they are struggling with now. It's just common sense.

Well I remember you saying a month ago the "fact" that the IR35 changes would definitely be implemented and arguing with me when I saying it was unjust. Which is now proved to be "not a fact", and was also found to be totally unfair by the lords.

You seem to have missed my question with regard to your circumstances, to put your advice into context? Are you inside, outside, or a permie who's opinion is at best irrelevant? I suspect, like an ex-smoker, you are someone who has taken action due to fear over IR35 and now want to lecture everyone on how your decision is the best. I bet you hate it that others have got a years reprieve, which you will miss out on!

[Andy2]

You seem to have missed my question with regard to your circumstances, to put your advice into context? Are you inside, outside, or a permie who's opinion is at best irrelevant? I suspect, like an ex-smoker, you are someone who has taken action due to fear over IR35 and now want to lecture everyone on how your decision is the best. I bet you hate it that others have got a years reprieve, which you will miss out on!

There is lot of scare mongering on these boards by some individuals. Some people like me have refused contract extensions and new contracts by reading this forum. Not sure what they gain out of it.