Reply to: IR35 reform pushed back

[JPC]

Farce

No matter what those bitter n twisted people at hmrc are winning at the moment, they've left their calling card with all the big corps reminding them they are liable end of.

What we need now is a clear and defined framework which assures contractors who ARE outside IR35. HMRC have a track record of targeting individuals after 'some time' giving them enough rope to hang themselves(cough DOTAS cough LOAN CHARGE) before they tap them up with a 'oh look you've been avoiding tax for sometime now' according to our taxation guidelines noone can possibly interpret apart from them of course.

This MUST come from HMRC, if they wish to uphold IR35 they must also allow/deny/approve contracts as they currently give no power to anyone but themselves to make this judgement therefore they MUST be responsible in allowing people to be fast tracked with a decision on each contract. None of this 'it's your own responsibility to declare' thats bullsh1t no it isn't because they will overturn that decision in an instant when they see fit, normally after sometime to maximise revenue. We need MP support here to stop HMRC making up the rules as they go alone to maximise revenue on people they feel 'deserve' to be taxed more.

[tinopener]

Say that again. Blanket outside? Since the IR35 Reform has been halted or before?

Before.

[tinopener]

How does **** off grab you then?

You going to answer my original question or not?

A nerve has been struck.

[northernladuk]

Well, that last sentence is a bit passive aggressive. I actually didn't know what "passive aggressive" meant until you wrote that, but you have now given me a sample.

That last sentence boxes people into a corner.

Hmmm, I think I first became aware of you because I used to be a 2000AD reader.

I may have even been angry at you because you were a serious guy into Judge Dredd rather than the more delicate stuff like Ace Trucking Co.

How does **** off grab you then?

You going to answer my original question or not?

[tinopener]

Dunno why. It's an interesting situation so just wanted to know some more information. It's actually news to us as we've never had a blanket outside determination before so worthy of asking about.

I pick on people and you complain, I ask a reasonable question about a situation and you complain...

Well, that last sentence is a bit passive aggressive. I actually didn't know what "passive aggressive" meant until you wrote that, but you have now given me a sample.

That last sentence boxes people into a corner.

Hmmm, I think I first became aware of you because I used to be a 2000AD reader.

I may have even been angry at you because you were a serious guy into Judge Dredd rather than the more delicate stuff like Ace Trucking Co.

[northernladuk]

sheesus. You're like a ghouly face on a ghost train.

Dunno why. It's an interesting situation so just wanted to know some more information. It's actually news to us as we've never had a blanket outside determination before so worthy of asking about.

I pick on people and you complain, I ask a reasonable question about a situation and you complain...

[tinopener]

Say that again. Blanket outside? Since the IR35 Reform has been halted or before?

sheesus. You're like a ghouly face on a ghost train.

[northernladuk]

Just been given a blanket outside IR35 determination by the client.

Was just about to strike my company off before this delay and go umbrella.

I probably will because I can't be bothered thinking about this anymore.

Say that again. Blanket outside? Since the IR35 Reform has been halted or before?

[tinopener]

Just been given a blanket outside IR35 determination by the client.

Was just about to strike my company off before this delay and go umbrella.

I probably will because I can't be bothered thinking about this anymore.

[youngguy]

Not ignoring the point about the risk of carrying on 'self determined outside' whilst in possession of an inside SDS, what are the views on the following scenario:

Let's say the client 'blanket assessed' and decided roles were inside which the contractor refuted. Contractor felt some of the reasons/CEST responses were incorrect and we are all aware that CEST doesn't follow the three pillars. An appeal was obviously pointless as the arbitrator was the person who answered the CEST.

If determination reverts to the PSC, and they follow due diligence (QDOS assessment, true documentation of their working practices with supporting evidence, consideration of case law and three pillars) it is possible they could reach an outside determination.

Now the arbitrator is a tribunal, rather than a risk averse business following a biased and flawed tool.

I'm not saying the above scenario reduces the long term risk, but I do wonder whether it reduces the chance of losing a case? After all that's how most have operated for years.

Obviously you'd have a big HMRC target on your back (we likely all do already) but in this climate where any work might be needed I wonder whether it buys a contractor another year and provides the continuity the country is striving for.

I'm not saying this is wise or recommending it, but you do wonder whether turning down a renewal or accepting and losing revenue to tax at this stage to combat long term issues, gives you short term issues.

[escapeUK]

Will be interesting to see where this £350 Bn comes from - maybe they might have to actually go cap in hand to the super rich/multinationals with all that money offshore...

Who will not give them a single penny.

[Jog On]

But they won't. Client has admitted the conditions of the contract don't match the reality so they won't be outside.

OK I admit.. Yes they will be, with the wrong determination and zero insurance. That's just dumb whatever spin you want to put on it.

You wonder why I sound like doom and gloom when people wont think or listen.

What reality? The reality for a lot of people is that HMRC announced they were making end clients and agents liable for incorrect status determinations and many clients and agents blanketed all contractors inside regardless of the 'reality' of the conditions of the contract to remove any risk of fines etc.

This is a messy one, but I see no reason why someone who changed their reality from outside to inside can't renegotiate a new reality - depends on how valuable they are to the client, really. Also HMRC will go after who they go after based on potential payoff over anything else. That's what we're dealing with here.

Will be interesting to see where this £350 Bn comes from - maybe they might have to actually go cap in hand to the super rich/multinationals with all that money offshore...

[mogga71]

But they will be. No matter what doom and gloom spin you put on it.

Sorry ... what do you mean by they will be? Do you mean free to work Outside again after they have just declared they were Inside after they were initially Outside? So basically just pretend the Inside thing never happened?

Obviously this will work at a completely different Outside IR35 gig. Apologies if that's what you meant.

[Agent]

How does someone on a self employed visa work as a LTD company? But that aside

By having a Turkish ECAA visa

[Wobblyheed]

Why? The delay is based on the virus alone. It's not like it's to debate the details of the implementation like the other delays. When the virus calms down it will hit in it's current form. May not but that's the best way to plan. It was going ahead and it will again. Even Sir Dave Chaplin can't stop that.

How does someone on a self employed visa work as a LTD company? But that aside
Working from home during a pandemic is completely different to a client not wanting him to. Pointless us carrying the discussion on if you can't see the difference.

Correct a high one as he knows exactly where the client will go next year. From what I've read recently HMRC can consider that fraud and open investigations where the wouldn't normally.

And yes, he can work the year if he has no other income but that doesn't mean it's right or he's going to be in a better place when it hits. All he's doing is delaying the inevitable. Hence my words of caution that nothing has changed, just delayed.

I'm still don't get his engagement method though. Self employed inside/outside?

The inevitable what? It's by no means inevitable that he will be investigated by HMRC.