State of the Market

[SussexSeagull]

I am a programmer from year 2000. I have a house in harrow on the hill which is worth £x.

Admittly, I don't have a pension, as all the money has gone into the 2 kids and house. But I have done reasonably ok out of working in London.

I didn't waste any of my talent nor opportunities to improve or do well. Hence why I am having such a nightmare now as I am not moving forwards and it's really frustrating.

We should all be keeping our skills up to date but the fact that someone with your experience can't find a role of some description, be it contract or permanent, and several others are in a similar boat suggests it is a bigger problem than anything you are doing.

[SussexSeagull]

As for office v hybrid v remote, it is a complicated argument and depends on the contract/job. Before lockdown I commuted to London five days a week and got up at 0620 and returned home at about 1900 if everything went ok, which it quite often didn't (on the up side the Delay Repay payments funded me going up north to watch football matches). I got renewed, which presumably means I was doing a good job, but the tiredness did affect my productivity. Once the first lockdown came round we were sent home to work, which wasn't offered before, and frankly I was productive as ever, if not more so. Eventually got terminated when the client pulled then horns in a couple of months into Covid but that was exceptional circumstances.

Further problem is if you are going into the office three times a week then you might as well buy a weekly train ticket so there is less financial benefit.

The last contract I did in London involved me going to the office three times and two of them were to collect my laptop and drop it off again. The people I needed to see were hardly in the office so there was no point going up there.

I do think the link between people not seeing us every day in an office and contract opportunities seemingly diminishing gets overlooked. Obviously it shouldn't make any difference and some clients are happy with it but it restricts us making the personal connections that can make a difference in a business relationship. Plus if you have some remote from another part of the country it isn't much of a leap to engage with consultants remote from another part of the world (less language and time zone differences).

[Bluenose]

I am not moving forwards and it's really frustrating.

I hear you and I do read your posts.

I left London in 2015 after 15 years working in the City and I have been doing work all over Europe but I do also work in the UK just not in London.

Thats 10 years (pandemic aside) of no work done in London and the people I am interacting with are rarely inside London as well. Prior to that almost 100% of all my work was inside City+Docklands and all the people were too.

What that tells me is that there might be IT work inside London for London based workers but if there is such work, its been delivered through a shinking pool of London IT based jobs being chased by a growing number of London based IT people.

[SchumiStars]

The point I am trying to make, badly it seems, that office based work at least gives UK employment a chance to work.

If the company can offer the job remotely then why would they then choose an expensive UK person when the same job could be done from somewhere where living expenses are lower and can therefore perhaps get a better candidate, cheaper.

Why would I get a British builder when I can get a Indian/Romainin to build me a driveway?

I am not trying to start an argument but trying to answer my own question as to why the market is so ******* tulip.

[SussexSeagull]

I hear you and I do read your posts.

I left London in 2015 after 15 years working in the City and I have been doing work all over Europe but I do also work in the UK just not in London.

Thats 10 years (pandemic aside) of no work done in London and the people I am interacting with are rarely inside London as well. Prior to that almost 100% of all my work was inside City+Docklands and all the people were too.

What that tells me is that there might be IT work inside London for London based workers but if there is such work, its been delivered through a shinking pool of London IT based jobs being chased by a growing number of London based IT people.

I have been in IT since 1998 and contracting since 2008 and I do think the industry is a lot less Londoncentric then it was. I live on the Sussex coast and historically the market in the South East has been hugely influenced by what goes on in the Square Mile, even if, like me, you have never worked there. I am not sure that is the case so much anymore. My last contract was a London based but it was a local authority who had no choice on location.

[SussexSeagull]

The point I am trying to make, badly it seems, that office based work at least gives UK employment a chance to work.

If the company can offer the job remotely then why would they then choose an expensive UK person when the same job could be done from somewhere where living expenses are lower and can therefore perhaps get a better candidate, cheaper.

Why would I get a British builder when I can get a Indian/Romainin to build me a driveway?

I am not trying to start an argument but trying to answer my own question as to why the market is so ******* tulip.

I think I understand what you are saying but I suspect the problem is outsourcing and the amount of Visas issued in the last few years for IT specialists who now have indefinite leave to remain.

That said, EU citizens can't work here so easily now (and vice versa).

[SchumiStars]

I think I understand what you are saying but I suspect the problem is outsourcing and the amount of Visas issued in the last few years for IT specialists who now have indefinite leave to remain.

That said, EU citizens can't work here so easily now (and vice versa).

If the UK workforce.demanded office based jobs then at least the companies would be forced into recruitment from the UK in the main. Which would then create demand and wage rises.

If we all sit at home and ask for previous high day rates then the only people to suffer is us, as the companies will just outsource the work and close the offices saving costs all round.

I can understand why people want to work from home, I personally can do more cycling, running with all of the commute time saved. But I don't think we can have high rates. It's one or the other.

Either we all work from home on low rates or work in the office on high rates. As previously said, I do love being in an office.

Why do I want to be home all day? It's makes people (physically) lazy. Which in turn is not good for our health.

Just been running, I hate the cold and then rememberd all the times when I was in the office and regardless of the weather still got my daily run done.

I had a good contract that gave me flexibility, I used to run from Charing cross to Canary Wharf and back. 13.1miles/1:28, almost daily.

[Bluenose]

I am not trying to start an argument but trying to answer my own question as to why the market is so ******* tulip.

Not at all, its a good Friday afternoon topic

There are a few answers to your points:

a) I know for a fact that many people who want your help outside of London won't employ people that live in London due to fears that you will ditch a Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. based role just so you can work in London again

So that is one problem you face, the market may have shifted and left you looking like a relic from 2008. You should be jogging around Salford Quays (M50) not Surrey Quays (SE16) in 2025. Sell your London house and leave for somewhere else.

b) UK/EU Companies are restricted to moving no more than around 75%-80% of their staff out of the EU and so to the point about 'making London great again' 80% of the jobs went to Eastern Europe, India, 10% left the M25 belt to be spread around lower cost locations in the UK and 10% were left inside London which leads to.....

c) As an IT person, the people you are dealing with, now, in 2025 are likely in a dozen locations in the UK, EU, ROW meaning that.....

d) The only way to do your job effectively is to be glued on MS Teams for 5 days a week.

What you will find if you walk into an office now, that has enforced a 'back to office' policy is a bunch of people sat starting at laptops running MS Teams looking like they belong in a call-centre. This is an oxymoron because infact they are not back in the office because the office is inside MS Teams on your laptop, the office has ceased to be a physical building where you all congregate and share ideas inside an air conditioned, glass house, it has been shrunk into your laptop.

No amount of back to office policy can un-invent MS Teams and the laptop and no amount of back to office policy will make that new normal more cost or CO2 efficient other than, simply accepting this is the new normal and just allowing people to use an office only when it is sensible to do so.

[SchumiStars]

Not at all, its a good Friday afternoon topic

There are a few answers to your points:

a) I know for a fact that many people who want your help outside of London won't employ people that live in London due to fears that you will ditch a Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. based role just so you can work in London again

So that is one problem you face, the market may have shifted and left you looking like a relic from 2008. You should be jogging around Salford Quays (M50) not Surrey Quays (SE16) in 2025. Sell your London house and leave for somewhere else.

b) UK/EU Companies are restricted to moving no more than around 75%-80% of their staff out of the EU and so to the point about 'making London great again' 80% of the jobs went to Eastern Europe, India, 10% left the M25 belt to be spread around lower cost locations in the UK and 10% were left inside London which leads to.....

c) As an IT person, the people you are dealing with, now, in 2025 are likely in a dozen locations in the UK, EU, ROW meaning that.....

d) The only way to do your job effectively is to be glued on MS Teams for 5 days a week.

What you will find if you walk into an office now, that has enforced a 'back to office' policy is a bunch of people sat starting at laptops running MS Teams looking like they belong in a call-centre. This is an oxymoron because infact they are not back in the office because the office is inside MS Teams on your laptop, the office has ceased to be a physical building where you all congregate and share ideas inside an air conditioned, glass house, it has been shrunk into your laptop.

No amount of back to office policy can un-invent MS Teams and the laptop and no amount of back to office policy will make that new normal more cost or CO2 efficient other than, simply accepting this is the new normal and just allowing people to use an office only when it is sensible to do so.

TBF, I do agree with you on some aspects. But then what do we do with all the office space in London, some of it, very expensive?

Yes, some can be turned into residential flat but the costs involved are usually massive, paid for by the owners and landlords.

Shirley, there is a financial hit that someone is bearing, including all of the associated taxes, utilities, travel costs that companies pay.

The government is loosing loads of cash with everyone working from home. All the coffee shops, the trains, the pubs are taking less cash, therefore less taxation.

Office based employment is a massive economic driver for the designated town, city and country.

Friday!

With kind regards, SchumiStars.

[SussexSeagull]

If the UK workforce.demanded office based jobs then at least the companies would be forced into recruitment from the UK in the main. Which would then create demand and wage rises.

If we all sit at home and ask for previous high day rates then the only people to suffer is us, as the companies will just outsource the work and close the offices saving costs all round.

I can understand why people want to work from home, I personally can do more cycling, running with all of the commute time saved. But I don't think we can have high rates. It's one or the other.

Either we all work from home on low rates or work in the office on high rates. As previously said, I do love being in an office.

Why do I want to be home all day? It's makes people (physically) lazy. Which in turn is not good for our health.

Just been running, I hate the cold and then rememberd all the times when I was in the office and regardless of the weather still got my daily run done.

I had a good contract that gave me flexibility, I used to run from Charing cross to Canary Wharf and back. 13.1miles/1:28, almost daily.

The facts of the matter is the world has changed, although it might be changing back a bit if people are having to go back to the office.

People need to make a personal decision if they want to travel to an office to work, either on a hybrid or full time basis. As for jobs going offshore, that was happening anyway. There was a trend towards it 15 years ago but the customer service tended to be poor so there was a lot of reshoring. I suspect in the interim they learnt their lesson and have improved on that score.

I have never worked in the City (although worked around it so know the geography) but I get the impression it isn't the epicentre of software development contracting anymore, especially with the move to Inside IR35.