State of the Market

[ShandyDrinker]

Isn't this skewed by Python generally being a secondary skill whereas C# is a primary one?

Jobs will ask for one of C++/Java/C#/etc. but they will pretty much all tag on Python as a secondary.

Historically I'd have said you're right. I know for certain BAML moved the vast majority of development to Python under the Quartz banner and know that a number of other financial institutions have done the same. These is just an organisations I know about although I am aware of other investment banks and insurance companies. Typically what happens in these kind of institutions and universities eventually trickles out elsewhere.

Ask yourself the question, if I have hundreds if not thousands of developers working for me globally, do I go with a development framework I can tie people into and save significant sums on associated development toolsets, infrastructure and the like or do I attempt to roll my own where I'm not likely to be shafted by suppliers having asymmetric release schedules whereby interdependencies do not match up. An example of this would be with Microsoft SSIS under SQL Server 2008 only allowing development against an older version of the .Net Framework - one which I've been bitten by before.

Although I don't intend to get into a language/framework flame war, I just prefer developing with C# rather than Python full stop. However, I can't argue with the economics of why many companies would choose Python as a first class citizen.

For me the answer is simple, Microsoft should make the development toolset free and cross platform. They're already moving in that direction anyway but if they want to stem the tide of people dumping languages such as C# they need to act sooner rather than later to make a free version of Visual Studio Professional or above... yes, yes, yes, I know there's already Visual Studio Code available on the likes of OSX but it's really not the same.

[AndrewK]

While not bad advice for the individual drip in the sea of workers, its futile in the face of the ongoing tidal waves of cheap workers being flown in from Bulgaria on EU passports, and India on intra company transfers for the outsourcers to be subbed into all our big businesses. Having again been inside one of the big outsourcers and seen the sheer volume of people they are bringing in from lower cost base countries while simultaneously getting rid of Brits in their and their customers workforces I am astounded that its being allowed to continue. The political class really does have a lot to answer for.

1) 10 from 100 is 10%. 10 from 50 is 20%.
2) Python is more hands on language and frequently mentioned even for non dev roles. I wouldn't say that there is suddenly shift to write enterprise systems in python, however people expect that even if you are c++, c#, java dev or even an engineer, you know python as well.

[CoolCat]

There is no argument against your points from my side. I have little doubt many people in safe contracts will wonder what all the fuss is about. Many will say you have to up your game and the like, I agree that it's a tough ask to compete with many of the cheaper alternatives but what else can you do? You either have to move yourself up the value chain or get out of the business. As I've recently said in a previous thread, it's easy to get a role... until it isn't and you wonder what the hell has changed to make things more difficult.

On a local level I see the number of contractors (or in a lot of cases permitractors) who were at arguably the largest financial institution here in Swindon who were there on and off over the last 10+ years who are no longer able to get work there. Many have been not been renewed and ultimately replaced by outsourcers.

One would think that as a result of the recent Brexit and Trump votes, many in power would be getting the message that people are fed up with the status quo. However, I don't think many businesses are going to relinquish their desire for cheaper resources or a larger pool of potential candidates just because of how the public voted. You only have to look at the recent comments about Deloitte or Citi to get the message.

I try to remain optimistic...

It is getting ridiculous.

I know so many people out of work now, and I know they have been replaced by plane loads of foreign nationals.

It is outrageous.

[northernladuk]

It is getting ridiculous.

I know so many people out of work now, and I know they have been replaced by plane loads of foreign nationals.

It is outrageous.

And its only going to get steadily worse.

[vwdan]

It is getting ridiculous.

I know so many people out of work now, and I know they have been replaced by plane loads of foreign nationals.

It is outrageous.

I'd be less bitter if they were any good. I was brought in to do a handover (Weird situation given I'd not worked with the client/service provider before) to an Indian outsourcing company with a UK presence - they flew a couple of their "top" guys over and I spent a couple of days wanting to hang myself. EVERYTHING is colour by numbers for them and if there's no written procedure they're completely and utterly lost. Don't get me wrong, there should have been more documentation than there was, but most of it is the equivalent of a mechanic asking to see a manual when you need a tyre changing.

And then there's the lying and arguing which appears to be a real cultural divide - pal, I couldn't give a tulip what you read on the Internet, I'm telling you exactly how it works and I know because I've spent more time knee deep in it than you've spent in the country.

[BlasterBates]

The key problem is that contracting is very dependent on the finance industry and interest rates were dropped, on top of that the banks (for obvious reasons) may need to go through some "reorg". Now that doesn't mean jobs will necessarily be shifted other than the usual offshoring, it just means it's going to be a financial hit so they have to cut costs elsewhere.

If you're not in finance it shouldn't be too bad.

[SueEllen]

I'd be less bitter if they were any good. I was brought in to do a handover (Weird situation given I'd not worked with the client/service provider before) to an Indian outsourcing company with a UK presence - they flew a couple of their "top" guys over and I spent a couple of days wanting to hang myself. EVERYTHING is colour by numbers for them and if there's no written procedure they're completely and utterly lost. Don't get me wrong, there should have been more documentation than there was, but most of it is the equivalent of a mechanic asking to see a manual when you need a tyre changing.

And then there's the lying and arguing which appears to be a real cultural divide - pal, I couldn't give a tulip what you read on the Internet, I'm telling you exactly how it works and I know because I've spent more time knee deep in it than you've spent in the country.

In two years time the CTO who brought them in will have moved on, the project(s) will have failed and they will be looking for other people to sort the mess out.

Rinse and repeat.

[GB9]

I see a lot of comments about local roles on here. It may be good having a local company that uses contractors but it smacks of disguised permie and also of putting eggs in a single basket.

Is everyone who is struggling prepared to either commute long distances or work away from home? Not ideal I know but better than nothing at times.

I have worked with plenty of people who have had a single local client and when that has ended they haven't had a clue what to do next.

If you want to make the most of contracting you have to be prepared to put yourself out at times.

[WTFH]

I see a lot of comments about local roles on here. It may be good having a local company that uses contractors but it smacks of disguised permie and also of putting eggs in a single basket.

Is everyone who is struggling prepared to either commute long distances or work away from home? Not ideal I know but better than nothing at times.

I have worked with plenty of people who have had a single local client and when that has ended they haven't had a clue what to do next.

If you want to make the most of contracting you have to be prepared to put yourself out at times.

Exactly.
Sometimes I wonder if people on here really are contractors if all they do is take local jobs.
In the last 10 years, I've contracted in:
Austria
Belgium
France
Germany
Ireland
Spain

...and currently a project in Japan

I've done a bit of work in the UK too, but there aren't many companies in the UK where my skills are not overkill.

[mrdonuts]

ruined by overseas outsourcers

i cant understand the financial benefit to a company of getting in outsourcers over individual contractors. The outsourcers cost a LOT more and the people they send are usually just out of school having been put on a crash course in whatever the technology is.

why cant they train uk citizens instead?

no wonder america voted trump and lest we forget the uk voted BREXIT