UK manufacturers panic

[Whorty]

Ok, I'm a moderate remainer. I'm unsure about the federalisation of Europe, and I think restricting immigration from outside the EU, could be a bad thing. I do, however, think in an era of supranational trading blocks, leaving one of the world's largest trading and regulatary blocks is a bad idea, even if it's only because of the negotiating power it affords us in dealing with similarly sized and smaller competing blocks.

So go on, I'm listening. Explain to me why we're better off out that in, because what I'm hearing from the remain side includes:

An unavoidable, and politically unpalatable border in Ireland.
Additional tariffs on goods entering and leaving the UK
The clowns currently responsible for the EU negotiations being responsible for future trade deals
Roaming charges being reintroduced for mobiles/data in Europe
Dismantling of workers rights, food and regulatory standards

and if we do rejoin the loss of the UK's current veto over pretty much anything which can be voted on inside the EU, the probability that we'll rejoin on a much worse deal, and the probability that we'll have to adopt the Euro.

All I'm hearing from the leave side is:

Europe need us more than we need them (with nothing to back that up)
Blue passports
We'll get our sovereignty back (never mind that the reason that things like freedom of labour haven't been implemented correctly by any UK government)

Serious question, tell me how we'll be better off....

I wouldn't hold your breath if you're expecting a serious response.

[BlasterBates]

At the end of the day on this forum we're all pretty unanimously behind no deal, so there are no excuses.

[Yorkie62]

Ok, I'm a moderate remainer. I'm unsure about the federalisation of Europe, and I think restricting immigration from outside the EU, could be a bad thing. I do, however, think in an era of supranational trading blocks, leaving one of the world's largest trading and regulatary blocks is a bad idea, even if it's only because of the negotiating power it affords us in dealing with similarly sized and smaller competing blocks.

So go on, I'm listening. Explain to me why we're better off out that in, because what I'm hearing from the remain side includes:

An unavoidable, and politically unpalatable border in Ireland.
Additional tariffs on goods entering and leaving the UK
The clowns currently responsible for the EU negotiations being responsible for future trade deals
Roaming charges being reintroduced for mobiles/data in Europe
Dismantling of workers rights, food and regulatory standards

and if we do rejoin the loss of the UK's current veto over pretty much anything which can be voted on inside the EU, the probability that we'll rejoin on a much worse deal, and the probability that we'll have to adopt the Euro.

All I'm hearing from the leave side is:

Europe need us more than we need them (with nothing to back that up)
Blue passports
We'll get our sovereignty back (never mind that the reason that things like freedom of labour haven't been implemented correctly by any UK government)

Serious question, tell me how we'll be better off....

Perhaps you should ask the remainers which crystal ball the are using to claim any of the above statemetns are absolutely and without any doubt true, because the truth is no body actually knows what will be come Brexit, because amongst other things it depends on the conditions of our departure.

[meridian]

Perhaps you should ask the remainers which crystal ball the are using to claim any of the above statemetns are absolutely and without any doubt true, because the truth is no body actually knows what will be come Brexit, because amongst other things it depends on the conditions of our departure.

Well, now you’re just setting an impossible standard. If someone said that the sun was going to be there tomorrow you’d still be able to say that there’s no way that that can be absolutely and without any doubt true.

It is interesting, though, they way that your mind works. On the one hand, you say that nobody actually knows what will happen. On the other hand, businesses are useless for not planning for this unknown.

[Yorkie62]

Well, now you’re just setting an impossible standard. If someone said that the sun was going to be there tomorrow you’d still be able to say that there’s no way that that can be absolutely and without any doubt true.

It is interesting, though, they way that your mind works. On the one hand, you say that nobody actually knows what will happen. On the other hand, businesses are useless for not planning for this unknown.

Yes and its called RISK MANAGEMENT. Haven't you ever managed risk? Your stupidity is beyond belief.

[Old Greg]

Yes and its called RISK MANAGEMENT. Haven't you ever managed risk? Your stupidity is beyond belief.

Whereas you are your fellow traveller caused the hazard in the first place, 62.

[Yorkie62]

Whereas you are your fellow traveller caused the hazard in the first place, 62.

Nah Hazard management is within safety management

Risk management is about threats, vulnerabilities and controls

[meridian]

UK manufacturers panic

Yes and its called RISK MANAGEMENT. Haven't you ever managed risk? Your stupidity is beyond belief.

What I’m pointing out is the cretinism of your statement that “nobody actually knows what will be”, and that remainers don’t have a crystal ball, and that you need someone to prove that those statements are absolutely and without doubt true.

Let me spell it out for you:

That IS Risk Management. Identifying possible risks without knowing whether they are “without doubt” true or not. Because, obviously, they would then cease to be a Risk and would be an Issue.

[b0redom]

Perhaps you should ask the remainers which crystal ball the are using to claim any of the above statemetns are absolutely and without any doubt true, because the truth is no body actually knows what will be come Brexit, because amongst other things it depends on the conditions of our departure.

Of course nothing is 100% certain, but:

An unavoidable, and politically unpalatable border in Ireland.
No one has come up with any firm policy on how this would be avoided except for some nebulous 'with technology' statement.

Additional tariffs on goods entering and leaving the UK
....are inevitable under a no deal Brexit, and likely under most other forms I've seen discussed.[/I]

The clowns currently responsible for the EU negotiations being responsible for future trade deals
Are you trying to suggest that a myriad of trade negotiators are hiding somewhere, ready to spring into action in 4 weeks?

Roaming charges being reintroduced for mobiles/data in Europe
This has already been announced by some of the mobile operators. Elimination of roaming charges was one of the things the EU helped to abolish.

Dismantling of workers rights, food and regulatory standards
This has already been announced today. The government are not moving existing legislation wholesale to UK law, rather they are taking a view on what is appropriate and what isn't.

So these all seem, at the very least possible, if not likely to happen. I'm yet to see you offer a single positive possible takeaway from any form of Brexit.

[b0redom]

Nah Hazard management is within safety management

Risk management is about threats, vulnerabilities and controls

Risk management is about removing or mitigating risk. No one who is responsible for that would attempt to incur extra risk without some potential reward. All of the 'land of milk and honey' rewards that were on offer in the leave campaign seem to have evaporated, so what's the up side?

I realise that both campaigns were appallingly contested and there were, to put it kindly, mistruths on both sides, but falling out of things like Gallileo, EurAtom and drug licensing and trade agreements which weren't even mentioned would seem to be massive risks/downsides, and nobody is suggesting any upsides.