A Brexit Thread from Someone who Didn't Vote

[Bean]

I broadly agree with this critique. Just not enough to trash the UK economy over it.

and that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold tbh.

It could, however, be 1 of many reasons that contribute to an overall position of 'out' for others...

[northernladyuk]

and that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold tbh.

It could, however, be 1 of many reasons that contribute to an overall position of 'out' for others...

There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission (I would however disagree with Benn's rather romanticised view of the accountability of the Westminster political class). But it is a nuanced argument which needs people to balance up the two options. And we've never seen what Leave looks like. I do wonder what Benn would say about the Henry VIII powers...

[WTFH]

What new regulations have been imposed/implemented?
Aren't we still part and parcel of the EU and small businesses have to do that anyway now?

I'd hope there would be some help from the government (and also isn't that what the transition deal is for?), but capitalism determines this, or are you trying to posit that EU regulations will be the cause of businesses closing?

Business opportunities increase when uncertainty arises don't they?

New regulations? Have you ever tried to carry out international business and having the correct labelling, paperwork, taxes, customers documentation etc?

Businesses want it.

Just cause you repeat something doesn’t make it true.
UK businesses that do not trade with Europe (buying or selling) might want it, if they face competition from Europe.
Businesses that trade with Europe and the UK (buying or selling) will be out of pocket.

As I mentioned last week, simple things like standards. Currently product that needs to be stamped to a standard only requires one stamp to be used throughout Europe (inc UK). If the UK cannot reach an agreement to stay as part of CEN, then every single product that is sold in the UK will require a BSI Kitemark and everything sold in Europe will still require CEN mark.
If CEN then update/replace their standard, the UK will only know about it when it is released, rather than being aware of the changes (and influence those changes) as they are discussed, then BSI will need to start their own discussions to decide if UK standards need to be updated/replaced. All the while this happens, the manufacturers are left in limbo whether they need to make changes, and what changes. Re-tool for the new EN at a cost, then re-tool a few weeks/months later for the new BS. Or don’t re-tool for the new EN, stop selling to Europe until BSI make their decision and lose that trade.

That’s just a simple example.

[Bean]

New regulations? Have you ever tried to carry out international business and having the correct labelling, paperwork, taxes, customers documentation etc?

So, you mean the current process, frameworks and regulatory hurdles they currently face? Seriously, I cannot highlight this point enough to you

Producers/manufacturers etc the world over already have to do all this to trade with the EU (and they do), and magically the world keeps turning without a large % of businesses going bust when the EU makes changes - or have I got that completely wrong and the EU causes business bankruptcy regularly through new regulations etc? cmon.....

Just cause you repeat something doesn’t make it true.
UK businesses that do not trade with Europe (buying or selling) might want it, if they face competition from Europe.
Businesses that trade with Europe and the UK (buying or selling) will be out of pocket.

As I mentioned last week, simple things like standards. Currently product that needs to be stamped to a standard only requires one stamp to be used throughout Europe (inc UK). If the UK cannot reach an agreement to stay as part of CEN, then every single product that is sold in the UK will require a BSI Kitemark and everything sold in Europe will still require CEN mark.
If CEN then update/replace their standard, the UK will only know about it when it is released, rather than being aware of the changes (and influence those changes) as they are discussed, then BSI will need to start their own discussions to decide if UK standards need to be updated/replaced. All the while this happens, the manufacturers are left in limbo whether they need to make changes, and what changes. Re-tool for the new EN at a cost, then re-tool a few weeks/months later for the new BS. Or don’t re-tool for the new EN, stop selling to Europe until BSI make their decision and lose that trade.

That’s just a simple example.

Again, like every other producer outside the EU currently has to adapt, you mean? See above point again.

Are you sure you understand the voluntary nature of starting up a business and being subject to most rules/regulation in pursuit of profit?

HTH BIDI

[BlasterBates]

There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission.

since Tony Benn's views were expressed the accountability of the EU commission has changed significantly, therefore they're not applicable to today's EU

Interestingly steps to significantly increase the accountability of the EU commission (they can now be sacked at any time by MEPs) were opposed fiercely by Eurosceptics who constantly complained about the accountability of the EU commission.

This is why I'm fully behind Brexit because the British don't deserve to be in the EU. It wouldn't matter how much the EU were to reform or what sort of reforms the EU would introduce the Brits will always slag it off, just knee jerk reactions.

[Bean]

There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission (I would however disagree with Benn's rather romanticised view of the accountability of the Westminster political class). But it is a nuanced argument which needs people to balance up the two options. And we've never seen what Leave looks like. I do wonder what Benn would say about the Henry VIII powers...

uncharted waters and all that, refer to Neanderthal berry eaters, flat Earth, Sun-centric universe etc.

If nobody ever tries something different, nobody ever finds out.


As for Tony Benn, indeed - safe seats make for an accountability deficit. FPTP another factor.

I'd imagine he'd be pragmatic to a point (e.g. we can't debate 40000 instruments in such a short timescale) but would expect he'd want some kind of safeguard process added into it.

[Bean]

since Tony Benn's views were expressed the accountability of the EU commission has changed significantly, therefore they're not applicable to today's EU

Interestingly steps to significantly increase the accountability of the EU commission (they can now be sacked at any time by MEPs) were opposed fiercely by Eurosceptics who constantly complained about the accountability of the EU commission.

This is why I'm fully behind Brexit because the British don't deserve to be in the EU. It wouldn't matter how much the EU were to reform or what sort of reforms the EU would introduce the Brits will always slag it off, just knee jerk reactions.

Except everyone on the EU side said the 4 freedoms were indivisible, and 1 of those was a major factor/demand for reform - so you're just not simply correct.

Had that 1 factor been reformed, we could well have seen a different result,

Closing down the monthly circus move from Strasbourg to Brussel, saving millions would have been beneficial,

Capping their own pay to the same limits as the austerity imposed limits on other nations, would probably have helped too


Those are just a few easy suggestions of helpful reform that would not have been sneered at by the UK, and the EU response was take what we give you

[WTFH]

So, you mean the current process, frameworks and regulatory hurdles they currently face? Seriously, I cannot highlight this point enough to you

Producers/manufacturers etc the world over already have to do all this to trade with the EU (and they do), and magically the world keeps turning without a large % of businesses going bust when the EU makes changes - or have I got that completely wrong and the EU causes business bankruptcy regularly through new regulations etc? cmon.....

Again, like every other producer outside the EU currently has to adapt, you mean? See above point again.

Are you sure you understand the voluntary nature of starting up a business and being subject to most rules/regulation in pursuit of profit?

HTH BIDI

Have you ever actually worked with a business that trades?
Have you ever set up their systems when they start trading across borders?

Have you actually read what I wrote, or just what you wanted to read?

We’re not talking just about making changes when the CEN makes a change. We are talking about doubling the paperwork/stamping for every product that needs to be sold to the EU and the UK.
That’s doubling.
Not as a one off, but going forward as well.
If the product is stamped with the EN mark, then there will have to be 2 different production runs.

Basic manufacturing.

[BrilloPad]

Have you ever actually worked with a business that trades?
Have you ever set up their systems when they start trading across borders?

Have you actually read what I wrote, or just what you wanted to read?

We’re not talking just about making changes when the CEN makes a change. We are talking about doubling the paperwork/stamping for every product that needs to be sold to the EU and the UK.
That’s doubling.
Not as a one off, but going forward as well.
If the product is stamped with the EN mark, then there will have to be 2 different production runs.

Basic manufacturing.

Only goods manufactured in the UK will be able to be sold in the UK.

Hard brexit.

[WTFH]

Hint: Have you got your mobile phone charger with you, or a laptop charger?
Does it have the following stamped on it:


Does it have this stamped on it:


One says it conformed to European tests. The other says it conforms to UK tests.
Currently you only need the CE mark.