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No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

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    Lord Flights comments from HoL last night

    But the most radical measures have been the anti-tax avoidance measures and I want to say a little about those.

    First, I find it rather sad that even in this House the language of this territory has become rather muddled and, dare I say, misleading.

    Let us be clear: you start off with evasion, which is criminal. That is simply breaking the law and not paying the tax that you should pay. Then there is avoidance. By definition, avoidance is within the law. If it were not, it would be evasion and without the law. But within avoidance there is a hierarchy. There are all sorts of government tax incentives such as ISAs, EIS, pension saving and the very tax incentives that are in this Finance Bill, which everyone would say were fine. They are actually there to avoid tax. The other side of the coin is that they constitute tax avoidance. I am sure that there are very few Members of this House who have not invested in ISAs or benefited from the tax incentives of pension savings. Everyone is a tax avoider in that sense.

    Then we have what have been essentially government schemes, but which have been poorly drafted and have then been exploited and abused where fundamentally the issue is that the original law needs tightening up. Then, at the bottom of the heap, are what I view as unacceptable schemes—fabrications. Tax is wholly justified on those. It has always been my view that I knew one when I saw one and always felt that it was unwise for anyone to consider using one of those.

    However, the measures in this Bill do not apply just to the latter—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, implied. They also apply to statutory government schemes brought in by the previous Government, where the law is somewhat unclear—in part because they were legislated in a hurry—and where there are disagreements between lawyers and HMRC, often as to what is within and without the measures that were enacted.

    There is a better solution—and here I declare an interest as chair of the EIS Association. There were criticisms that EIS was at one stage subject to abuse, and the industry sat down with HMRC and went through what HMRC thought and what the industry thought. It ended up with a win-win solution whereby in future all EIS issues are subject to pre-clearance. That means that those raising the money, and the companies, know where they stand, the Revenue knows where it stands, and the whole issue is satisfactorily cleansed of criticism. This Finance Bill introduces a retrospective requirement, where the Revenue considers that a scheme has been abused, for the full amount of tax being saved to be deposited. This applies to three areas of government statutory incentives in particular: to film and sale schemes, known as Sections 42 and 48; to enterprise zones; and, where I think there is most injustice, to the Business Premises Renovation Allowance —BPRA—scheme. I might add that I have no investment in any of these areas and no direct first-hand knowledge, but a lot of perfectly responsible people have brought concerns to me, and they have been raised with the Treasury.

    I start by saying that if the Treasury and HMRC considered that some schemes did not meet the statutory requirements, they should probably have disallowed them at the outset. Instead, for years things have been waiting to be sorted out and have not been addressed one way or the other.

    My next point is that many people registered under the so-called DOTAS—Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Scheme—rules before there was any obligation to do so. They registered with an intention to be transparent.

    16 July 2014 : Column 683

    Ironically, it now ends up with those registering being punished and those not registering not being punished. It is a very strange anomaly in the approach that has been taken. What is happening is that HMRC is demanding money when they cannot necessarily show that the relevant investors have done something wrong.

    The proposed legislation which authorises HMRC to remove funds from individuals’ bank accounts goes even further towards a somewhat overbearing state. It is such a complicated and difficult area that very few people actually know what is in the Finance Bill in this regard. However, the Treasury Select Committee and the Chartered Institute of Taxation have complained about unprecedented HMRC executive powers of decision, and of HMRC being put in the position of judge and jury, and they have complained that it creates a precedent in the UK tax system whereby the tax authorities are given power to demand payment without any right of appeal. The Treasury Select Committee also objected to the retrospective nature of the requirement for taxpayers to pay 100% up front within 90 days—potentially applying, I think, to some 65,000 cases. This puts fiscal policy on a slippery slope towards arbitrary taxation. Many individuals have been good-faith, legitimate BPRA investors over several years with no complaints from HMRC. They now find themselves on the wrong side, with notices to pay.

    Moreover, the current position seems immediately to be shambolic, in that although HMRC has published an extensive list of all those to whom those arrangements are to apply, at the same time it appears to be saying—if anyone can get through to it on the telephone—that, no, they will not apply until negotiations have been completed.

    There is an important issue, which is that there may be some situations, particularly with the BPRA, where most of the schemes are completely in compliance with the law but some are deemed not to be by HMRC, so a modest and partial amount of tax may have to be recovered. I am advised—I do not know whether it is true—that HMRC did not take full external legal advice on the measures before the Finance Bill was produced and that there is a significant possibility of judicial reviews where the courts will find against HMRC.

    Finally, the accelerated payments rules are contrary to two fundamental legal principles. First, I believe that in this country we are always innocent until proven guilty; whereas what is happening here is that the standard basis of self-assessment is being overridden and taxpayers are being treated as guilty until they can prove their innocence. Secondly, there is no proper appeal mechanism. As I have already said, HMRC is judge and jury in these matters. Extraordinarily to my mind, two of the schemes are—I repeat—government, statutory schemes, state-aid approved and brought in under the previous Government.

    The Treasury and HMRC have been unwilling to listen to the concerns of many people. I exhort the Treasury and HMRC to be extremely careful how they use the new powers; to endeavour to use them justly; and that HMRC itself is wholly transparent in the use of those powers.

    Comment


      Possibility of amendments?

      Is there any possibility there will be amendments to this bill at any of the remaining stages of this bill?

      Comment


        Originally posted by turbowoowoo View Post

        There is a better solution—and here I declare an interest as chair of the EIS Association.
        Thank you for your declaration because I am getting irritated by those new posters who seem to be 'guiding' the conversation to EIS/VCT territory.

        I do hope, of course that you aren't touting anything either...
        "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
        - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

        Comment


          Originally posted by chubacabra View Post
          Is there any possibility there will be amendments to this bill at any of the remaining stages of this bill?
          Nope, the next stage is Royal Assent, so unless queeny is about to stick up for her people we're done.

          Comment


            Originally posted by d000hg View Post
            So you'd rather lose whatever slim chance you have of success, and do the same for thousands of other victims, merely for vengeance against a few dozen MPs?


            That wasn't what happened with expenses. As soon as it was evident they couldn't sweep it under the rug, the government went on the offensive against the offenders in order to save face.

            If MPs get in the public eye for tax avoidance and then you lot are tarred with the same brush, you lose whatever shred of credibility you have left. More to the point, you lose any chance to have public opinion on your side. Of recent weeks you've all been seeing how Twitter can be quite powerful, and seeing some cautious support... that will end if the public realise you're using the same "dirty tricks" as MPs.

            The time to dig dirt on MPs et al was before the decisions were made, when they had more chances to forget the whole thing. That would be pretty unlikely now, it's surely gone too far fr them to do an about-face?

            If you really think "it can't get any worse" and you've lost, then that doesn't tie in with all this BeenGauked stuff.
            Ive had enough of the judgemental attitudes from people who dont know the facts, who may have even been in nappys at the time of our decision (@fotgetfotdo sprints to mind!) and dont understand IR35 or the corner we were pushed into in the early 2000's. Of course none of us would have gone into this had IR35 not arrived (I certainly wouldnt have, I was quite happy with my LTD!)

            So im afraid I have no time for the GP, they will never understand how we got here or our motives some 14 years ago (god when I read that it seems laughable this is still going on), unless we give them a lengthy history lesson. So trying to keep them on side is totally fruitless, all they see is schools and hospitals and £5bn of scum avoiders money, of course totally ignoring things such as the F35 £2.5bn order BBC News - UK to spend £2.5bn on F-35 fighters and what that £5bn might actually end up paying for, and at what cost. A lot of people are hard working normal families, the inference being people that used the scheme a decade ago are somehow not! I get sick of this phrase being thrown around....what the F does it actually refer too??!!!!

            If Mr Gauke would like to discuss with my wife and daughter why we are not a hard working family when we are both out at work daily, my little one is in nursery and I have been on full PAYE since leaving the scheme in 2006, then he is free to make his case!
            Last edited by smalldog; 17 July 2014, 10:19.

            Comment


              Originally posted by lucozade View Post
              Personally I don't give a crap about what the public think.

              If MPs are getting away with it and not punished then I want the same treatment.

              End of story.

              The public can cry all they want but if us and MPs did nothing illegal then it's time to stop chasing after us.
              +1

              Who gives a flying feck about public opinion.
              'Orwell's 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual'. -
              Nick Pickles, director of Big Brother Watch.

              Comment


                Originally posted by turbowoowoo View Post
                But the most radical measures have been the anti-tax avoidance measures and I want to say a little about those.

                First, I find it rather sad that even in this House the language of this territory has become rather muddled and, dare I say, misleading.

                Let us be clear: you start off with evasion, which is criminal. That is simply breaking the law and not paying the tax that you should pay. Then there is avoidance. By definition, avoidance is within the law. If it were not, it would be evasion and without the law. But within avoidance there is a hierarchy. There are all sorts of government tax incentives such as ISAs, EIS, pension saving and the very tax incentives that are in this Finance Bill, which everyone would say were fine. They are actually there to avoid tax. The other side of the coin is that they constitute tax avoidance. I am sure that there are very few Members of this House who have not invested in ISAs or benefited from the tax incentives of pension savings. Everyone is a tax avoider in that sense.

                Then we have what have been essentially government schemes, but which have been poorly drafted and have then been exploited and abused where fundamentally the issue is that the original law needs tightening up. Then, at the bottom of the heap, are what I view as unacceptable schemes—fabrications. Tax is wholly justified on those. It has always been my view that I knew one when I saw one and always felt that it was unwise for anyone to consider using one of those.

                However, the measures in this Bill do not apply just to the latter—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, implied. They also apply to statutory government schemes brought in by the previous Government, where the law is somewhat unclear—in part because they were legislated in a hurry—and where there are disagreements between lawyers and HMRC, often as to what is within and without the measures that were enacted.

                There is a better solution—and here I declare an interest as chair of the EIS Association. There were criticisms that EIS was at one stage subject to abuse, and the industry sat down with HMRC and went through what HMRC thought and what the industry thought. It ended up with a win-win solution whereby in future all EIS issues are subject to pre-clearance. That means that those raising the money, and the companies, know where they stand, the Revenue knows where it stands, and the whole issue is satisfactorily cleansed of criticism. This Finance Bill introduces a retrospective requirement, where the Revenue considers that a scheme has been abused, for the full amount of tax being saved to be deposited. This applies to three areas of government statutory incentives in particular: to film and sale schemes, known as Sections 42 and 48; to enterprise zones; and, where I think there is most injustice, to the Business Premises Renovation Allowance —BPRA—scheme. I might add that I have no investment in any of these areas and no direct first-hand knowledge, but a lot of perfectly responsible people have brought concerns to me, and they have been raised with the Treasury.

                I start by saying that if the Treasury and HMRC considered that some schemes did not meet the statutory requirements, they should probably have disallowed them at the outset. Instead, for years things have been waiting to be sorted out and have not been addressed one way or the other.

                My next point is that many people registered under the so-called DOTAS—Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Scheme—rules before there was any obligation to do so. They registered with an intention to be transparent.

                16 July 2014 : Column 683

                Ironically, it now ends up with those registering being punished and those not registering not being punished. It is a very strange anomaly in the approach that has been taken. What is happening is that HMRC is demanding money when they cannot necessarily show that the relevant investors have done something wrong.

                The proposed legislation which authorises HMRC to remove funds from individuals’ bank accounts goes even further towards a somewhat overbearing state. It is such a complicated and difficult area that very few people actually know what is in the Finance Bill in this regard. However, the Treasury Select Committee and the Chartered Institute of Taxation have complained about unprecedented HMRC executive powers of decision, and of HMRC being put in the position of judge and jury, and they have complained that it creates a precedent in the UK tax system whereby the tax authorities are given power to demand payment without any right of appeal. The Treasury Select Committee also objected to the retrospective nature of the requirement for taxpayers to pay 100% up front within 90 days—potentially applying, I think, to some 65,000 cases. This puts fiscal policy on a slippery slope towards arbitrary taxation. Many individuals have been good-faith, legitimate BPRA investors over several years with no complaints from HMRC. They now find themselves on the wrong side, with notices to pay.

                Moreover, the current position seems immediately to be shambolic, in that although HMRC has published an extensive list of all those to whom those arrangements are to apply, at the same time it appears to be saying—if anyone can get through to it on the telephone—that, no, they will not apply until negotiations have been completed.

                There is an important issue, which is that there may be some situations, particularly with the BPRA, where most of the schemes are completely in compliance with the law but some are deemed not to be by HMRC, so a modest and partial amount of tax may have to be recovered. I am advised—I do not know whether it is true—that HMRC did not take full external legal advice on the measures before the Finance Bill was produced and that there is a significant possibility of judicial reviews where the courts will find against HMRC.

                Finally, the accelerated payments rules are contrary to two fundamental legal principles. First, I believe that in this country we are always innocent until proven guilty; whereas what is happening here is that the standard basis of self-assessment is being overridden and taxpayers are being treated as guilty until they can prove their innocence. Secondly, there is no proper appeal mechanism. As I have already said, HMRC is judge and jury in these matters. Extraordinarily to my mind, two of the schemes are—I repeat—government, statutory schemes, state-aid approved and brought in under the previous Government.

                The Treasury and HMRC have been unwilling to listen to the concerns of many people. I exhort the Treasury and HMRC to be extremely careful how they use the new powers; to endeavour to use them justly; and that HMRC itself is wholly transparent in the use of those powers.
                Executive summary...

                A slap on the wrist for HMRC, but carry on chaps.
                'Orwell's 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual'. -
                Nick Pickles, director of Big Brother Watch.

                Comment


                  It'll just get sensationalised in the press anyway, no chance of a positive slant on it now the MPs are embroiled in the 'scandal'

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by SantaClaus View Post
                    +1

                    Who gives a flying feck about public opinion.
                    Pragmatic people who want the right outcome rather than simply to be in the right.

                    Just as you paid a lobbying group as a tool to bring pressure, you can use public opinion.

                    If you don't care about public opinion, then all this emphasis on using Twitter is a bit pointless. Because the entire point of Twitter is not to contact the MPs, but to contact them in a way that is visible to the general public.
                    Originally posted by MaryPoppins
                    I'd still not breastfeed a nazi
                    Originally posted by vetran
                    Urine is quite nourishing

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by d000hg View Post
                      Pragmatic people who want the right outcome rather than simply to be in the right.

                      Just as you paid a lobbying group as a tool to bring pressure, you can use public opinion.

                      If you don't care about public opinion, then all this emphasis on using Twitter is a bit pointless. Because the entire point of Twitter is not to contact the MPs, but to contact them in a way that is visible to the general public.
                      And thats the issue Joe Public doesn’t give a damm about us or Retrospective tax laws. Just how much is a Pint, a litre of Fuel, can I see a doctor today, how much is my Electric bill costing me etc etc. Unless it hits their PAYE or benefits they will carry on watching Eastenders.
                      So the real challenge is how can we get Joe Public on our side? I can't see how we can:-(

                      Comment

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