No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[PlaneSailing]

From my Conservative MP latest response to latest NTRT letter.

Dear Mr X

Thank you for your recent letter regarding Retro Tax.

Further to our meeting on xxx and my letters dated xxx and xxx. I believe I have made my position quite clear. You are more than welcome to write to David Gauke MP yourself, however this will not be an action I will be undertaking on your behalf.

I trust this clarifies the situation

It certainly does, message received loud and clear, I will forward onto NTRT.

So this clarifies that he is in favour of retrospective tax changes. Is it worth collecting a list of these people and perhaps making their views a little more public. Surely views like this are not good for UK plc.

[d000hg]

From my Conservative MP latest response to latest NTRT letter.

Dear Mr X

Thank you for your recent letter regarding Retro Tax.

Further to our meeting on xxx and my letters dated xxx and xxx. I believe I have made my position quite clear. You are more than welcome to write to David Gauke MP yourself, however this will not be an action I will be undertaking on your behalf.

I trust this clarifies the situation

It certainly does, message received loud and clear, I will forward onto NTRT.

What a complete arse!

I do not think that is fair. An MP who meets you, corresponds with and clearly states their position is not an arse. An MP who refuses to see you and fobs you off with form letters is.

[the great escape]

...And it's an extremely close parallel to the argument over HMRC's fantasy that they "consistently maintained that the scheme didn't work".

From Qu.13 to Qu.32, the Committee is questioning their use of the word "throughout" (Hartnett & Inglese had both asserted that "lawyers were involved throughout" the Vodaphone negotiations).

Lin Homer (for HMRC) attempts to argue that "throughout" means "not throughout".

HMRC appears determined to have its way by stripping language of its meaning. It's really hard to see how the UK can ultimately benefit from this kind of departmental sickness.

H & H looked very wobbly. I really thought HMRC had sharper people than that on the front line. The committee and chairman really seemed bent on exposing them as inconsistent. Lin H struck me as defensive and not the hard core tax expert I thought her lead position would carry. The sharp ends of the sticks seemed to be on the committee side. Wonder what their opinion of our case would be.

[swede]

I do not think that is fair. An MP who meets you, corresponds with and clearly states their position is not an arse. An MP who refuses to see you and fobs you off with form letters is.

It was just my opinion - they aren't being very sympathetic.

[SantaClaus]

hmrc have the funds(our money!) to publicise this stuff...they dont publish the thousands of cases they lose!
Part of their objective is to scare people into thinking they should pay maximum amount of tax!

Yep, and some of the scare stories in the media could almost have been dictated by an HMRC mandarin. The Sunday Times carries at least 2 stories every week that sound like a state sponsored tax warning.

[Ninja]

'Throughout' - What does this word mean?

...And it's an extremely close parallel to the argument over HMRC's fantasy that they "consistently maintained that the scheme didn't work".

From Qu.13 to Qu.32, the Committee is questioning their use of the word "throughout" (Hartnett & Inglese had both asserted that "lawyers were involved throughout" the Vodaphone negotiations).

Lin Homer (for HMRC) attempts to argue that "throughout" means "not throughout".

HMRC appears determined to have its way by stripping language of its meaning. It's really hard to see how the UK can ultimately benefit from this kind of departmental sickness.

This is a really good find.

According to Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com (which I know is not OED, but hey)

Through·out
(preposition)
1. in or to every part of; everywhere in: They searched throughout the house.
2. from the beginning to the end of: He was bored throughout the play.

(adverb)
3. in every part: rotten throughout.
4. at every moment or point: following the text closely throughout.

The key word in each explanation is the word 'Every'

It is public record from Jane Kennedy & Thingy Davies that 'Every' does not apply; therefore the use of the word 'throughout' is not applicable to our case. QED

[d000hg]

It was just my opinion - they aren't being very sympathetic.

Yes I know but it's not their job to be sympathetic or to agree with you - I'm sure they get people clamouring to them about both sides of every coin! I'd rather an MP took the time to talk to me about why they didn't agree with me!

[BrilloPad]

Yes I know but it's not their job to be sympathetic or to agree with you - I'm sure they get people clamouring to them about both sides of every coin! I'd rather an MP took the time to talk to me about why they didn't agree with me!

Yeah. My MP gets alot of constituents saying they want retrospective legislation.

Every MP agrees with us - even Gauke. But some are not prepared to stand up to Sir Humprey.

My MP was on the finance committe that approved budget note 66. He seems very upset that he was misled and has taken it up with Ed Balls.

Quite a few MPs are helping us. But a few just want a quiet life.

I never ever though I would say this - but I intend to vote Labour next time.

[Buzby]

why HMRC did not take the 4 cases to tax tribunal before 2008

Originally Posted by speling bee
Phil, what happens if there is retrospective legislation?
Good question, the Government would have you believe that the BN66 legislation wasn't retrospective, merely a "retrospective clarification" (??) of an existing law from 1987. Retrospective legislation being unconstitutional of course, it's like implementing a congestion charge in Birmingham, backdating it to 1990 and then charging anyone who has ever driven through central Birmingham in that period..

When elected, the Coalition Government committed to restore the UK tax system’s reputation for predictability through the new Tax Consultation Framework. The Protocol on Unscheduled Announcements of Changes in Tax Law has also been amended so that retrospective measures will be “wholly exceptional”, and the Chartered Institute of Taxation have called retrospective taxation "inherently unfair".

That said the Government do like to try it on, however in our case they would find it difficult to retrospectively legislate as there are existing court cases which have looked at the arrangements and confirmed the interpretation of the law so any retrospection would be contrary to the already established case law. There is also a provision in the trust deed we use which allows for the terms of the trust to be retrospectively amended.
Last edited by PhilBreeze; 15th August 2012 at 23:56. Reason: missing double quote

just seen this post on another thread, maybe HMRC didn't want to go to tax tribunal because if they lost they couldn't then 'clarify' the law retrospectively?

would FOI request show details of why the 4 test cases never proceeded, or do we have to wait for the ombudsman?

[Taffia]

My MP was on the finance committe that approved budget note 66. He seems very upset that he was misled and has taken it up with Ed Balls.

Same here. Mine has told me he didn't realise what he was voting for.