BN66 - Court of Appeal and beyond

[Leyther70]

I agree with what's been said so far that we need to wait and see what mp say now however from memory the earlier hmrc circular said in prep for losing at the sc stage hmrc and mp are prepping to take cases to the tax courts. In that case I can't see anything happening re collection until that's settled.

Do we know what the timescales of this are? i.e. getting into the tax courts and getting a decision out of them?

[BrilloPad]

Sorry but I don't want to go against the grain here, but do you know something we don't with regards to what MP will say?

I have no idea. But MP will fight every step of the way.

They consider 3 months to be the blink of an eye. They will take their time and give us the best advice.

[moira under the stairs]

I have no idea. But MP will fight every step of the way.

They consider 3 months to be the blink of an eye. They will take their time and give us the best advice.

Each of us effected have traveled a long and bumpy road, the wheels have fell off a few times and the radiator blown on several occasions, but we are still here with many more miles to go, we all knew at the onset that this was not going to be an easy journey.

Brush down the clobber, lift the chin and fight on.......

[Morlock]

HMRC Discovery Timescales

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following.

My understanding is that HMRC can only open an investigation into an "old" tax return if they use their special "discovery" protocol (eg if new information comes to their attention). In 2009, the rule in force at the time was that they would have to use discovery if more than 12 months had elapsed (the "ordinary time limit"). The rules were changed in 2010, and the ordinary time limit was lengthened considerably to four years.

I have 2 questions, which I'm hoping some wise forum members might be able to answer:

1) Does the discovery clock start ticking on the date that the tax return is submitted, or on the date that the deadline for submission has passed? In other words, let's say I filed my return for tax year 07/08 on 1st August 2008, well ahead of the online submission deadline of 31st Jan 2009. Does the discovery rule have to be used after 1st Aug 2009, or does it only kick in on 31st Jan 2010? So let's say HMRC open an investigation on 30th Jan 2010; can they do this without using discovery?

2) Now that the rules have changed, can the new lengthier timescales be applied to old investigations. In other words, an investigation was opened in the past where discovery should have been used (because more than 12 months had elapsed). Under the new rules, where less than four years have elapsed since the original return was submitted, is that earlier investigation now deemed to have been opened in an ordinary manner?

[smalldog]

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following.

My understanding is that HMRC can only open an investigation into an "old" tax return if they use their special "discovery" protocol (eg if new information comes to their attention). In 2009, the rule in force at the time was that they would have to use discovery if more than 12 months had elapsed (the "ordinary time limit"). The rules were changed in 2010, and the ordinary time limit was lengthened considerably to four years.

I have 2 questions, which I'm hoping some wise forum members might be able to answer:

1) Does the discovery clock start ticking on the date that the tax return is submitted, or on the date that the deadline for submission has passed? In other words, let's say I filed my return for tax year 07/08 on 1st August 2008, well ahead of the online submission deadline of 31st Jan 2009. Does the discovery rule have to be used after 1st Aug 2009, or does it only kick in on 31st Jan 2010? So let's say HMRC open an investigation on 30th Jan 2010; can they do this without using discovery?

2) Now that the rules have changed, can the new lengthier timescales be applied to old investigations. In other words, an investigation was opened in the past where discovery should have been used (because more than 12 months had elapsed). Under the new rules, where less than four years have elapsed since the original return was submitted, is that earlier investigation now deemed to have been opened in an ordinary manner?

In normal cases they can open an enquiry upto 12 months after the return deadline (31st Jan). However if you file the return late they have upto 12 months plus the last day of the next quarter to open an enquiry. for example, if you dont submit your return til end April then they have 12 months from April plus the last day of the next quarter giving them until end July the following year.

[SantaClaus]

If you want to know where HMRC will be spending our money once they have robbed us, here's a good example:

'Suspend back to work tsar': MPs demand action over fraud probe into job placement scheme | Mail Online

"Emma Harrison's firm A4e is accused of receiving fees from the taxpayer after finding people jobs lasting just 24 hours.... She awarded herself £8.6million of mainly taxpayers' cash this month"

[Ganimos]

DISCOVERY

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following.

My understanding is that HMRC can only open an investigation into an "old" tax return if they use their special "discovery" protocol (eg if new information comes to their attention). In 2009, the rule in force at the time was that they would have to use discovery if more than 12 months had elapsed (the "ordinary time limit"). The rules were changed in 2010, and the ordinary time limit was lengthened considerably to four years.

I have 2 questions, which I'm hoping some wise forum members might be able to answer:

1) Does the discovery clock start ticking on the date that the tax return is submitted, or on the date that the deadline for submission has passed? In other words, let's say I filed my return for tax year 07/08 on 1st August 2008, well ahead of the online submission deadline of 31st Jan 2009. Does the discovery rule have to be used after 1st Aug 2009, or does it only kick in on 31st Jan 2010? So let's say HMRC open an investigation on 30th Jan 2010; can they do this without using discovery?

2) Now that the rules have changed, can the new lengthier timescales be applied to old investigations. In other words, an investigation was opened in the past where discovery should have been used (because more than 12 months had elapsed). Under the new rules, where less than four years have elapsed since the original return was submitted, is that earlier investigation now deemed to have been opened in an ordinary manner?

From their site. Seems a 'catch all' situation now.

The time limit for making a discovery assessment is not later than 20 years after the end of the tax year to which it relates where the loss of tax is:



brought about deliberately by the person
attributable to a failure to notify liability under Section 7, or
attributable to a tax avoidance scheme which is a notifiable arrangement or a listed or hallmarked scheme and the user of the scheme failed to disclose details to HMRC at the proper time.

SALF411 - Enquiries into Tax Returns: time limits for discovery assessments

[Morlock]

Discovery - Update

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following.

My understanding is that HMRC can only open an investigation into an "old" tax return if they use their special "discovery" protocol (eg if new information comes to their attention). In 2009, the rule in force at the time was that they would have to use discovery if more than 12 months had elapsed (the "ordinary time limit"). The rules were changed in 2010, and the ordinary time limit was lengthened considerably to four years.

I have 2 questions, which I'm hoping some wise forum members might be able to answer:

1) Does the discovery clock start ticking on the date that the tax return is submitted, or on the date that the deadline for submission has passed? In other words, let's say I filed my return for tax year 07/08 on 1st August 2008, well ahead of the online submission deadline of 31st Jan 2009. Does the discovery rule have to be used after 1st Aug 2009, or does it only kick in on 31st Jan 2010? So let's say HMRC open an investigation on 30th Jan 2010; can they do this without using discovery?

2) Now that the rules have changed, can the new lengthier timescales be applied to old investigations. In other words, an investigation was opened in the past where discovery should have been used (because more than 12 months had elapsed). Under the new rules, where less than four years have elapsed since the original return was submitted, is that earlier investigation now deemed to have been opened in an ordinary manner?

I have kindly been pointed in the direction of an answer to question 1:
Opening and Working Enquiries: SA Returns filed on time
"From 2008 the time limit for opening an SA enquiry is one year after the date the return is filed. So if the 2007/08 return is filed on 5 May 2008 the SA enquiry window closes on 5 May 2009"

[TalkingCheese]

From their site. Seems a 'catch all' situation now.

The time limit for making a discovery assessment is not later than 20 years after the end of the tax year to which it relates where the loss of tax is:



brought about deliberately by the person
attributable to a failure to notify liability under Section 7, or
attributable to a tax avoidance scheme which is a notifiable arrangement or a listed or hallmarked scheme and the user of the scheme failed to disclose details to HMRC at the proper time.

SALF411 - Enquiries into Tax Returns: time limits for discovery assessments

But we disclosed everything at the correct time, DOTAS number included, so we dont fall into that category I believe.

[Morlock]

But we disclosed everything at the correct time, DOTAS number included, so we dont fall into that category I believe.

Yes, I think there is a case to say that Discovery is not appropriate, since there was no new information to discover (we disclosed it all on the form). Hence if the ordinary enquiry time window was closed when they issued the enquiry notice, then they have missed the boat and the enquiry notice is invalid.