Client insists on me using their computers

[kingcook]

Greetings,

I have been with my current client since August 2009 as a contractor via an umbrella co. Contract has just been renewed (for the 4th time) and so i have just started my own Ltd Co, and trying to stay out of IR35.

However, the client (who are heavy on security) insist that i use their own equipment, and won't let me connect my own computer (a laptop) to their company network.

I know there are other factors to consider for IR35, but in this particular part, how would this look from HMRC's POV, trying to stiff me with IR35?

Has anyone come across this with a client?

KingCook.

[xoggoth]

Seem to recall reading that where there are security implications (as there would be in many companies - defence related obviously, confidential documents, viruses if connected to network etc) this should not be a significant factor. It has nothing to do with employment or otherwise any more than you having to conform to company safety procedures. Visitors would be subject to the same rules. It won't stop them trying to claim it is obviously.

[northernladuk]

Greetings,

I have been with my current client since August 2009 as a contractor via an umbrella co. Contract has just been renewed (for the 4th time) and so i have just started my own Ltd Co, and trying to stay out of IR35.

However, the client (who are heavy on security) insist that i use their own equipment, and won't let me connect my own computer (a laptop) to their company network.

I know there are other factors to consider for IR35, but in this particular part, how would this look from HMRC's POV, trying to stiff me with IR35?

Has anyone come across this with a client?

KingCook.

I don't wanna be rude but there has to be a level of common sense in most things we do (ok ok this is arguable when it comes to the HMRC) but seriously.. You think the HMRC are going to stiff you for not using your PC when the client flatly refuses to let you use PC on security which is a totally valid reason. Use your noddle man. The whole IR35 and even two year rule can be a a very wooly area but they arn't that stupid to shaft you when it isn't your fault.... Nearly all decent sized companies will not let you do this, they may provide a wireless point for internet access but they won't let you put their software or run their email on personal laptops (ok ok no mails from people saying mine do... I am talking generally and it is the case for the OP)

I suggest you take some time to read up a lot more on IR35 and actually understand the base reasons for it existing and then think about the situations pragmatically rather than just quoting lore, coming to an impossible situation and then worrying.

[kingcook]

I don't wanna be rude but there has to be a level of common sense in most things we do (ok ok this is arguable when it comes to the HMRC) but seriously.. You think the HMRC are going to stiff you for not using your PC when the client flatly refuses to let you use PC on security which is a totally valid reason. Use your noddle man. The whole IR35 and even two year rule can be a a very wooly area but they arn't that stupid to shaft you when it isn't your fault.... Nearly all decent sized companies will not let you do this, they may provide a wireless point for internet access but they won't let you put their software or run their email on personal laptops (ok ok no mails from people saying mine do... I am talking generally and it is the case for the OP)

I suggest you take some time to read up a lot more on IR35 and actually understand the base reasons for it existing and then think about the situations pragmatically rather than just quoting lore, coming to an impossible situation and then worrying.

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

[moorfield]

Ithink about the situations pragmatically rather than just quoting lore, coming to an impossible situation and then worrying.

Or you might get answers like this....

Make sure you don't use clientcos chairs either, you can definitely be done for that. I would suggest getting yourself one from Homebase or Ikea etc. and bringing it in with you tomorrow.

[Brussels Slumdog]

I don't wanna be rude but there has to be a level of common sense in most things we do (ok ok this is arguable when it comes to the HMRC) but seriously.. You think the HMRC are going to stiff you for not using your PC when the client flatly refuses to let you use PC on security which is a totally valid reason. Use your noddle man. The whole IR35 and even two year rule can be a a very wooly area but they arn't that stupid to shaft you when it isn't your fault.... Nearly all decent sized companies will not let you do this, they may provide a wireless point for internet access but they won't let you put their software or run their email on personal laptops (ok ok no mails from people saying mine do... I am talking generally and it is the case for the OP)

I suggest you take some time to read up a lot more on IR35 and actually understand the base reasons for it existing and then think about the situations pragmatically rather than just quoting lore, coming to an impossible situation and then worrying.

Agree
I guess we all use the clients toilet, coffee machine and sometimes are invited to client social events like the Xmas party.. The list goes on. Why should a computer be any different?

You can argue as well that your job is to program,configurate or code the Clients Computer so it makes common sense that you do this work on their computer and not yours

[northernladuk]

Or you might get answers like this....

Make sure you don't use clientcos chairs either, you can definitely be done for that. I would suggest getting yourself one from Homebase or Ikea etc. and bringing it in with you tomorrow.

LOL Class!!

[SueEllen]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

Then get your contract reviewed by one of the solicitors. (Have a look under CUK Navigation -> Directory -> Legal and IR35 Advisory Services.)

[northernladuk]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

Thats ok, as you may see on here we have been trying to understand it for years and still haven't got to the bottom of it all. There is no quick answer and the fact you are trying shows a better mind set than a hufe majority of contactors. There is no quick and dirty answer to this but here are my tips for starting out with it...

1) Get your contract checked by someone. QDOS do free checks if you take out insurance with them (which isn't a bad thing to do for £250 a year but as you might see we are not agreed on this either). Having IR 35 comliant contract is a very good start. Remember though they go on your working conditions so just avoiding it in your contract isn't a given.

2) Think like business not an individual, look at other service providors for examples. Take the guys that clean the plants in the office. They are contracted to do that, they do it in a reasonable timescale as per the contract. You do not tell then what times, how to do it, when to do it, dictate how they clean them, don't ask them to do anything they are not contracted to do but they do have to be considerate to the client needs etc. Not the best example but its a start.

3) You can't be under client control. Very important. They cannot dictate your times, assign you extra work that isn't contracted, you have right to substitute, try not to use their holiday booking systems and expenses etc. There are exceptions as per this example that you have to take in to consideration however. Working times are an example, you should have the right to dicate your own working times, options to work from home etc but you have to be sympathetic if the client has core working hours. You can't just roll in at 11 each day, as a professional you will comply to what everyone does but are not directed to do so etc..

4) Search this forum, lots of examples of individual situations to consider and learn.

It is a long process and even my points above 'could' be argued but there is no wrong and right in most cases. Use the pointers above as a starting point if you are very new and then investigate each situation. Above all remember you are a business, not a permie.

Hope that gives you a starter for 10.

[BolshieBastard]

Hmmm, some interesting answers here. But, I thought one of the corner stones of HMRC's arguement to being a disguised employee and hence iR35 caught, was, do you provide your own equipment or do you use the client's?

Its also to be noted several contract review companies specifically ask whether you provide your own equipment for the role.

The analogy of using the clients desk, chairs, coffee machine etc is a good one but even so, I think even HMRC know that it is impractical to bring your own desk and chair. One would consider their view of IT equipment to be totally different however.