Reply to: Client insists on me using their computers

[Boo]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

I have always had the same restrictions that you are undergoing but I have found clients to be quite amenable to allowing me to use my own company's computer monitors, keyboards, mouses etc. Clients will be strict about connecting the main box to their network but you have an IR35 defence if they'll let you do that. I also own a Tablet PC which I use as a notebook in meetings etc and all-in-all I am prtty confident in saying I supply more than half the equipment I use on the client site.

Hth,

Boo

[Wanderer]

Too much reading. Try The Potted Guide to IR35 | Contractor Accountants

That's a good one too. I wish we'd had plain speaking advice like this when IR35 first came out.....

[darmstadt]

Seeing as most of my customers computers are multiple mainframes, I might have a problem using my own

[doodab]

Or you might get answers like this....

Make sure you don't use clientcos chairs either, you can definitely be done for that. I would suggest getting yourself one from Homebase or Ikea etc. and bringing it in with you tomorrow.

I have my own chair (a Herman Miller Aeron), desk, development server etc. I don't take them into client offices but I do usually bring a decent mouse and occasionally keyboard.

I had one IT manager with a ftse 30 company who suggested that I was more likely to get a virus from them than vice versa but that's the exception rather than the norm in big companies.

[Not So Wise]

Has anyone come across this with a client?

In 10 plus years never had a client let me use my own equipment if connecting to their network, as they don’t know if your hardware/OS meet their most basic security standards. Basic security 101 really (Double so for people in my line of work as I normally end up with pretty high privileges)

And in regards to your changing from "in to out" with IR35, if in pretty much same role with same client and just changed intermediate company that is a fight i would say you would lose if ever investigated

[malvolio]

Check out this link IR35:Substitution, control and mutuality of obligation :: Contractor UK

Too much reading. Try The Potted Guide to IR35 | Contractor Accountants

[zedAccounts]

Greetings,

I have been with my current client since August 2009 as a contractor via an umbrella co. Contract has just been renewed (for the 4th time) and so i have just started my own Ltd Co, and trying to stay out of IR35.

However, the client (who are heavy on security) insist that i use their own equipment, and won't let me connect my own computer (a laptop) to their company network.

I know there are other factors to consider for IR35, but in this particular part, how would this look from HMRC's POV, trying to stiff me with IR35?

Has anyone come across this with a client?

KingCook.

I don't think that having to use client's equipment alone will put you inside IR35. Make sure that issues like control, MOO and ROS are in your favour.

ZED.

[Wanderer]

i have just started my own Ltd Co, and trying to stay out of IR35.

There are three things you need to concentrate on, any one of them is a trump card for you:

• Right of Substitution: Is there a requirement for the worker’s personal service?
• Direction and Control: Is there a sufficient degree of control over the worker?
• Mutuality of obligation: Are the mutual obligations of the contract consistent with employment?

All the others are minor points, they may be useful in a borderline case but I wouldn't lose any sleep over them - you'll probably just annoy the hell out of the client by arguing the point over them.

Check out this link IR35:Substitution, control and mutuality of obligation :: Contractor UK

[xoggoth]

Having to provide your own equipment would be a good pointer away from IR35 certainly but that doesn't mean that having to use theirs is a pointer to it. If there are valid reasons it should be a neutral point.

Ok ok, minor.

[malvolio]

The key question here is the Direction and Control one and is it D&C if the client demands you do "something". To which the answer is no, not if everyone, permie and contractor alike, has to adhere to the same demands and there is a valid business reason - like not exposing your network to someone's unknown PC, or requiring support staff to work the same hours as the users they are supporting.

"Using your own PC" is a minor pointer anyway, and if HMRC had to get to that level to prove IR35 caught, I suspect the court would giggle quietly and tell them to grow up.

[northernladuk]

Forgot to add. One the you can do which most of contractors do here is bring in their own laptops and connect to the wirless connection provided for outsourced agents to let them connect remotely to their systems. You can argue then you are using your PC for doing your business's work on but use the clients PC's for accessing their systems.

Problem here is we get a lot of stick as permies are constantly complaining we do it just so we can browse internet freely so we bypass any interest usage policies the client uses. Doesn't help that some of the guys have facebook up constantly on thier personal laptops

[northernladuk]

Hmmm, some interesting answers here. But, I thought one of the corner stones of HMRC's arguement to being a disguised employee and hence iR35 caught, was, do you provide your own equipment or do you use the client's?

Its also to be noted several contract review companies specifically ask whether you provide your own equipment for the role.

The analogy of using the clients desk, chairs, coffee machine etc is a good one but even so, I think even HMRC know that it is impractical to bring your own desk and chair. One would consider their view of IT equipment to be totally different however.

Where possible is the key word in this argument though. I think it is a given that companies have tight security which in a lot of cases is imposed on them by law or something. HMCR are not going to put companies at risk by imposing rules that would not allow them to take on contractors. At my client we have one of the biggest outsourcing companies in the world working on site and even they are using client PC's. I do think it is important to try and get out where possible. I use my own phone for example but when it is something imposed by the client on reasonable grounds you should be fine. Make sure however you do have your own PC as evidence though. No company has no PC's so at least if you show willing by having your kit you are more than covered.

[BolshieBastard]

Hmmm, some interesting answers here. But, I thought one of the corner stones of HMRC's arguement to being a disguised employee and hence iR35 caught, was, do you provide your own equipment or do you use the client's?

Its also to be noted several contract review companies specifically ask whether you provide your own equipment for the role.

The analogy of using the clients desk, chairs, coffee machine etc is a good one but even so, I think even HMRC know that it is impractical to bring your own desk and chair. One would consider their view of IT equipment to be totally different however.

[northernladuk]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

Thats ok, as you may see on here we have been trying to understand it for years and still haven't got to the bottom of it all. There is no quick answer and the fact you are trying shows a better mind set than a hufe majority of contactors. There is no quick and dirty answer to this but here are my tips for starting out with it...

1) Get your contract checked by someone. QDOS do free checks if you take out insurance with them (which isn't a bad thing to do for £250 a year but as you might see we are not agreed on this either). Having IR 35 comliant contract is a very good start. Remember though they go on your working conditions so just avoiding it in your contract isn't a given.

2) Think like business not an individual, look at other service providors for examples. Take the guys that clean the plants in the office. They are contracted to do that, they do it in a reasonable timescale as per the contract. You do not tell then what times, how to do it, when to do it, dictate how they clean them, don't ask them to do anything they are not contracted to do but they do have to be considerate to the client needs etc. Not the best example but its a start.

3) You can't be under client control. Very important. They cannot dictate your times, assign you extra work that isn't contracted, you have right to substitute, try not to use their holiday booking systems and expenses etc. There are exceptions as per this example that you have to take in to consideration however. Working times are an example, you should have the right to dicate your own working times, options to work from home etc but you have to be sympathetic if the client has core working hours. You can't just roll in at 11 each day, as a professional you will comply to what everyone does but are not directed to do so etc..

4) Search this forum, lots of examples of individual situations to consider and learn.

It is a long process and even my points above 'could' be argued but there is no wrong and right in most cases. Use the pointers above as a starting point if you are very new and then investigate each situation. Above all remember you are a business, not a permie.

Hope that gives you a starter for 10.

[SueEllen]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to IR35 (it is my 3rd day with my limited co. trying to understand it fully).

Then get your contract reviewed by one of the solicitors. (Have a look under CUK Navigation -> Directory -> Legal and IR35 Advisory Services.)