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BN66 - Time to fight back (Chapter 3)

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    Jones v Montpelier

    This is the guy who (allegedly) stole the scheme and client lists from MP to set up the rival scheme "Suo Motu". He and Tim Warr then got the members to settle, before ratting us out to HMRC. If that wasn't enough, he then set up http://www.ir35amnesty.com to try and cash in on it.

    While he was supposedly suffering from mental illness, and wasn't fit to appear in court, would have been around the same time he and Tim Warr were cooking up http://www.bn66.co.uk/bn66.htm which contains the following ironic quote.

    He and his wife separated and he now lives in rented accommodation.


    http://www.judgments.im/content/J370.htm

    `13. Such affidavit exhibited a letter dated 26th February 2008 from Dr Ashenafi, an Associate Specialist in Psychiatry. Such letter stated :

    I see Mr Jones in a psychiatric clinic for the last one year and he has been under psychiatric out-patient follow-up since at least 1999. He has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and there are signs that he is becoming depressed at present which is partly under the pressure of the upcoming court appearance and the need to prepare for it and partly through the demands of him being the sole carer to his daughter Jenny who has a learning disability as well as suffering from bipolar illness herself.

    In light of the above I am asking the court to defer the proceedings as he is not mentally fit to defend himself in court at present. In addition to changes in his medication I am arranging for Mr Jones to receive more support for his daughter from social services to alleviate some of the pressure on him. With the above measures I hope that he will recover from this phase of his bipolar depression and be able to represent himself in court in the future.`

    38. We recognise, as did Mr Ramsden, that the Appellant has genuine difficulties. Since at least 1998 the Appellant has suffered from a serious episodic mental illness [Bipolar Affective Disorder] of which the episodes are partly related to stress. His condition has not been assisted by two events in 2004, namely the tragic death of his young brother and his wife leaving him for another man. Additionally the Appellant is now solely responsible for the care of Jenny, his younger daughter, who has both learning problems and recurrent psychotic illness. She has unpredictable moods and is sometimes aggressive. The very significant demands which such responsibility have placed on the Appellant have taken their toll on him. He has become more depressed and distracted and has begun to consume more alcohol than is good for him. All these problems have preoccupied him and he has been unable to concentrate on what he needs to undertake in respect of this litigation.

    Comment


      Originally posted by ILurkedTooLong View Post
      Hello, I've been lurking here for ages, so figured it was about time to delurk and say hello..!

      Thanks to all of you who've been posting here the last few months, it has been incredibly interesting/useful. Never did I think back in 2001 that seven years later I'd be reading about the magical time travelling abilities of the (then) "Inland Revenue". I find HRMC incredibly inspirational and intend to use the "it was as if it was always that way" powers throughout my daily-life...

      Have an extra-marital affair? You can get away with it merely by wiggling your fingers like an amateur magician and saying "it was as if it had never happened." Forget a birthday? Get a speeding ticket? you can now fix all of life's problems with a bit of timetravellyrestospectivity! Being charged interest on your tax bill? Just pay it retrospectively! (How can interest be charged if you pay "as if it had always been paid"?)

      Furthermore why not extend the idea and time-travel fowards too? If, heaven forbid, the JR is lost, and we all must pay up, then just pay it in the future, retrospectively. "Dear HRMC; Thank you for your recent demand. Please be reminded that I had already paid this amount, in the year 2132, with restrospective effect. Yours sincerely, blahblahblah"

      take it easy folks + happy weekend....

      ILurkedTooLong
      Thanks for de-lurking ILurkedTooLong and welcome to our thread!
      'Orwell's 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual'. -
      Nick Pickles, director of Big Brother Watch.

      Comment


        Originally posted by ILurkedTooLong View Post
        Hello, I've been lurking here for ages, so figured it was about time to delurk and say hello..!

        Thanks to all of you who've been posting here the last few months, it has been incredibly interesting/useful. Never did I think back in 2001 that seven years later I'd be reading about the magical time travelling abilities of the (then) "Inland Revenue". I find HRMC incredibly inspirational and intend to use the "it was as if it was always that way" powers throughout my daily-life...

        Have an extra-marital affair? You can get away with it merely by wiggling your fingers like an amateur magician and saying "it was as if it had never happened." Forget a birthday? Get a speeding ticket? you can now fix all of life's problems with a bit of timetravellyrestospectivity! Being charged interest on your tax bill? Just pay it retrospectively! (How can interest be charged if you pay "as if it had always been paid"?)

        Furthermore why not extend the idea and time-travel fowards too? If, heaven forbid, the JR is lost, and we all must pay up, then just pay it in the future, retrospectively. "Dear HRMC; Thank you for your recent demand. Please be reminded that I had already paid this amount, in the year 2132, with restrospective effect. Yours sincerely, blahblahblah"

        take it easy folks + happy weekend....

        ILurkedTooLong
        many thanks for de-lurking

        Comment


          Discovery Assessment vs CN

          I recieved a Discovery Assessment today for 2002/03. It has used "estimated partnership profits" in their calculations. It states it has been sent to MontP too, but I have of course emailed TQ/NW to check.

          Couple of questions

          1. Why do they use estimated figures as opposed to the figures on the SA ? Their estmate is £3K more than Partnership figures, I have for that tax year ?

          2. Whats the difference between a DA and a CN - No duck jokes please !

          Maddog

          PS If they had demanded the money in 2003 and proved their case, I was in a position to pay. In 2008, and my City contract coming to an abrupt one, they can whistle for it !
          Last edited by Maddog; 6 December 2008, 13:33.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Maddog View Post
            I recieved a Discovery Assessment today for 2002/03. It has used "estimated partnership profits" in their calculations. It states it has been sent to MontP too, but I have of course emailed TQ/NW to check.

            Couple of questions

            1. Why do they use estimated figures as opposed to the figures on the SA ? Their estmate is £3K more than Partnership figures, I have for that tax year ?

            2. Whats the difference between a DA and a CN - No duck jokes please !

            Maddog

            PS If they had demanded the money in 2003 and proved their case, I was in a position to pay. In 2008, and my City contract coming to an abrupt one, they can whistle for it !
            I may be wrong but I suspect they are referring to "estimated partnership profits" because they haven't had the partnership accounts for that year. Of course, that doesn't explain why there would be a discrepancy with what's disclosed on your SA. They usually use the term "Discovery" when they haven't previously put your SA under enquiry ie. they missed the Jan 31 cutoff for that tax year. In effect, it is a retrospective assessment.

            Comment


              Originally posted by DonkeyRhubarb View Post
              This is the guy who (allegedly) stole the scheme and client lists from MP to set up the rival scheme "Suo Motu". He and Tim Warr then got the members to settle, before ratting us out to HMRC. If that wasn't enough, he then set up http://www.ir35amnesty.com to try and cash in on it.

              While he was supposedly suffering from mental illness, and wasn't fit to appear in court, would have been around the same time he and Tim Warr were cooking up http://www.bn66.co.uk/bn66.htm which contains the following ironic quote.

              He and his wife separated and he now lives in rented accommodation.


              http://www.judgments.im/content/J370.htm

              `13. Such affidavit exhibited a letter dated 26th February 2008 from Dr Ashenafi, an Associate Specialist in Psychiatry. Such letter stated :

              I see Mr Jones in a psychiatric clinic for the last one year and he has been under psychiatric out-patient follow-up since at least 1999. He has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and there are signs that he is becoming depressed at present which is partly under the pressure of the upcoming court appearance and the need to prepare for it and partly through the demands of him being the sole carer to his daughter Jenny who has a learning disability as well as suffering from bipolar illness herself.

              In light of the above I am asking the court to defer the proceedings as he is not mentally fit to defend himself in court at present. In addition to changes in his medication I am arranging for Mr Jones to receive more support for his daughter from social services to alleviate some of the pressure on him. With the above measures I hope that he will recover from this phase of his bipolar depression and be able to represent himself in court in the future.`

              38. We recognise, as did Mr Ramsden, that the Appellant has genuine difficulties. Since at least 1998 the Appellant has suffered from a serious episodic mental illness [Bipolar Affective Disorder] of which the episodes are partly related to stress. His condition has not been assisted by two events in 2004, namely the tragic death of his young brother and his wife leaving him for another man. Additionally the Appellant is now solely responsible for the care of Jenny, his younger daughter, who has both learning problems and recurrent psychotic illness. She has unpredictable moods and is sometimes aggressive. The very significant demands which such responsibility have placed on the Appellant have taken their toll on him. He has become more depressed and distracted and has begun to consume more alcohol than is good for him. All these problems have preoccupied him and he has been unable to concentrate on what he needs to undertake in respect of this litigation.
              DR - I read the transcript of the judgement dated 17 June 2008 which discusses the full trial in July. Did this ever happen? What was the outcome of it? Seems to me that not all the dates add up, I would have thought a 12 week deferral would be from the judgement date?

              All this of course is another distraction for MP.

              Great research
              Join the No To Retro Tax Campaign Now
              "Tax evasion is easy: it involves breaking the law. By tax avoidance OECD means unacceptable avoidance ... This can be contrasted with acceptable tax planning. What is critical is transparency" - Donald Johnston, Secretary-General, OECD

              Comment


                Originally posted by Emigre View Post
                DR - I read the transcript of the judgement dated 17 June 2008 which discusses the full trial in July. Did this ever happen? What was the outcome of it? Seems to me that not all the dates add up, I would have thought a 12 week deferral would be from the judgement date?

                All this of course is another distraction for MP.

                Great research
                As far as I can tell, the trial has still not taken place. Under normal circumstances, you would feel some sympathy for someone in Jones' position but he has gone out of his way over the past few years to undermine our cause just to fuel his vendetta against MP.

                However, you do have to wonder if MP might have been better off letting this go rather than pursuing someone as clearly unhinged as Jones.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by DonkeyRhubarb View Post
                  As far as I can tell, the trial has still not taken place. Under normal circumstances, you would feel some sympathy for someone in Jones' position but he has gone out of his way over the past few years to undermine our cause just to fuel his vendetta against MP.

                  However, you do have to wonder if MP might have been better off letting this go rather than pursuing someone as clearly unhinged as Jones.
                  1. I'd go a bit further than that...Jones had access to records of members of the MP scheme back in 2001/2002...including my details...when he parted company with MP he took those records with him...Jones vendetta against MP resulted in him supplying HMRC with all these members details...my understanding was that this was part of the agreement that the reached with HMRC when he settled on behalf of all his SuoMoto members...so ask me again if I have any sympathy for him when his actions may result in hundreds/thousands of bankruptcies, marriage breakups, etc...I think you know what my answer would be...in some circles, a character like him is known as a 'grass'...

                  2. having met the aforementioned Mr Jones, I can confirm that he is a very 'odd' character...

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by TheGadgetMan View Post
                    1. I'd go a bit further than that...Jones had access to records of members of the MP scheme back in 2001/2002...including my details...when he parted company with MP he took those records with him...Jones vendetta against MP resulted in him supplying HMRC with all these members details...my understanding was that this was part of the agreement that the reached with HMRC when he settled on behalf of all his SuoMoto members...so ask me again if I have any sympathy for him when his actions may result in hundreds/thousands of bankruptcies, marriage breakups, etc...I think you know what my answer would be...in some circles, a character like him is known as a 'grass'...

                    2. having met the aforementioned Mr Jones, I can confirm that he is a very 'odd' character...

                    If he did this he is beneath contempt. Can we get the met to investigate him for leaking our personal details to the hmrc filth. 20 or so officers from the terorrist unit would be about enough to search his offices and home, dont suppose they have any other pressing matters to atend to.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by DonkeyRhubarb View Post
                      As far as I can tell, the trial has still not taken place. Under normal circumstances, you would feel some sympathy for someone in Jones' position but he has gone out of his way over the past few years to undermine our cause just to fuel his vendetta against MP.

                      However, you do have to wonder if MP might have been better off letting this go rather than pursuing someone as clearly unhinged as Jones.
                      Pre-meditated theft of Intellectual Property of the nature allegedly undertaken by Jones needs to have its day in Court. In the tax planning and agency arenas the ability for people to steal client lists (and tax schemes) allowing them to hit the ground running on a new business without incurring the cost of Counsel opinion and advertising etc leads to the growth in charlatans that we see today. Suo Motu is a classic example. Easy come easy go, selling out to the at the first hurdle.

                      How many times do you receive calls for potential contracts from some agency you never heard of, simply because a guy you may/may not have dealt with at one of them is now out there on his own? Ultimately it cheapens the quality of service and increases the risks.

                      As for MP's position, they clearly feel they have been damaged by Jones' actions and are doing the right thing. MP are fit and proper participants in the tax planning arena with an international cleint base. Losing a part of that business to a pair of here today gone tomorrow types requires redress.

                      My personal views Jones and Giles, if guilty is best left unsaid.
                      Last edited by Emigre; 8 December 2008, 13:01. Reason: format
                      Join the No To Retro Tax Campaign Now
                      "Tax evasion is easy: it involves breaking the law. By tax avoidance OECD means unacceptable avoidance ... This can be contrasted with acceptable tax planning. What is critical is transparency" - Donald Johnston, Secretary-General, OECD

                      Comment

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